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judochoke
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repeating a 9 ball pattern over and over again? - 07-27-2019, 03:52 PM

I was watching the guy rotation master you tube channel, and I noticed on his 9 ball runout he never missed. then I found out he has set up his pattern, and hits it over and over again. of coarse he's not going to miss, because he knows the pattern by heart.

so I set up his 9 ball pattern, and it was pretty easy to hit all 9 balls in. will this help in any way to help me improve my 9 ball game???? by doing it over and over again??

I freaking love 9 ball. I could practice it forever. BUT, its very hard to make 9 balls with perfect position for me, a lower player. so now im on 7 balls, and I can sometime run the rack, sometimes not. im doing all the basic stuff, looking at 3 balls ahead, using rails, ect, ect, but once I get out of line my goose is normally cooked.

am I expecting to much, to be able to beat the ghost at 9 ball in only one year of practicing
daily?

WILL I EVER GET THERE?
  
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07-27-2019, 08:41 PM

Trying the same patterns different ways can be good for your creativity.

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07-31-2019, 04:43 AM

If you can occasionally run 7 then that is your sweet spot for practice, for improvement. Setting a goal just beyond what you can accomplish most of the time is the best way to practice anything. Of course certain shots and other parts of playing pool need attention also, but I'm talking about overall practicing, where you are using all of your skills, simulating playing an opponent, the ghost.

For 9ball or 10ball this might mean you practice with 4 balls at first, preferably the last 4, and when you're able to run these with no trouble, or very little trouble, bump it up to 5 or 6 balls, whatever feels just out of reach but not too difficult to get every now and then. Once again, use the last few balls. Using the last few balls gets your brain accustomed to seeing the completion of a run out. In a real game situation when your opponent misses and leaves you the last 5 or 6 balls, your brain will basically say, "I know this!!".


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08-01-2019, 03:53 AM

So wait. You say you're a lower level player but you're frustrated that you can't run out 9 ball racks with perfect position? I appreciate players who set high standards for themselves, but don't you think you're expecting too much of yourself at this stage?

It sounds like you could use a little perspective. Find some players you admire and ask them how long it took to get where they are. You may be surprised at the answers you get.

I'm starting to feel a little grateful that there was no YouTube back when I was learning. It was confusing enough learning without a bunch of different experts on hundreds of various videos showing everyone that their way is the right way.

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08-01-2019, 04:33 AM

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Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
So wait. You say you're a lower level player but you're frustrated that you can't run out 9 ball racks with perfect position? I appreciate players who set high standards for themselves, but don't you think you're expecting too much of yourself at this stage?

It sounds like you could use a little perspective. Find some players you admire and ask them how long it took to get where they are. You may be surprised at the answers you get.
Great point. Expectations shouldn't be set so high that they have little to no chance of being met. This is why most players struggle to improve. They wanna start off several skill levels beyond their current development, and practice becomes more disappointing than encouraging.

This was a common pitfall with music students back when I was giving lessons. A lot of beginning drummers and wannabe guitarists spend hours trying to learn something way beyond their skill level, beyond what their current limitations allow. These students typically quit because "It's too hard!". But it wouldn't be so difficult if they'd develope their skills in reasonable, progressive increments, building up to the more challenging goals.


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08-01-2019, 09:05 AM

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... For 9ball or 10ball this might mean you practice with 4 balls at first, preferably the last 4, and when you're able to run these with no trouble, or very little trouble, bump it up to 5 or 6 balls, ...
Here is an organized way to do that:

Start with a number of balls, like 4. You are going to play the "4-ball ghost" a match -- race to 11. Rack and break the 9 balls as usual, then remove all but the highest 4. Take ball in hand for the first ball and see if you can run out. If you run out you get one point. If you fail to run out, the ghost gets a point. The match ends when you or the ghost gets to 11. Mark the score down in your practice log.

Your next match with the ghost depends on whether you won or lost. If you won, you go to one ball more (5 in this example case), but if you lost, you go to one ball less.

This style of practice is called "progressive practice" and its main feature is that the difficulty of the task automatically adjusts to your current level of play -- the drill always fits.

If you want some more basic progressive practice drills and a more complete discussion of how they work, see the handout as the fourth item at: http://www.sfbilliards.com/miscellaneous.htm


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08-01-2019, 09:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Here is an organized way to do that:

Start with a number of balls, like 4. You are going to play the "4-ball ghost" a match -- race to 11. Rack and break the 9 balls as usual, then remove all but the highest 4. Take ball in hand for the first ball and see if you can run out. If you run out you get one point. If you fail to run out, the ghost gets a point. The match ends when you or the ghost gets to 11. Mark the score down in your practice log.

Your next match with the ghost depends on whether you won or lost. If you won, you go to one ball more (5 in this example case), but if you lost, you go to one ball less.

This style of practice is called "progressive practice" and its main feature is that the difficulty of the task automatically adjusts to your current level of play -- the drill always fits.

If you want some more basic progressive practice drills and a more complete discussion of how they work, see the handout as the fourth item at: http://www.sfbilliards.com/miscellaneous.htm

I like the full break and removing all but the highest balls you want to use. But if playing the 4 ball ghost and you win 11-10, or 11-8, or whatever if it's a bit a of close score, then I wouldn't bump it up to 5 balls. I'd want a score of at least 11-3, where I win better than 80% of the games. Then I'll know without a doubt that my ability to run out if my opponent leaves the last 4 is very good. Once I am 80 to 90% or better on 4 balls I'd add two more balls and see how I handle that.

Regardless of whether or not I beat the 6 ball ghost, I wouldn't progress forward until I could get out at least 80% of the time or more. Winning 11-5 would indicate that my chances of getting out with 6 balls is only about 2 out 3....not good enough if you like winning. Nothing seems to lose more games than running down a rack that you think you can run out. If you can consistently run 4 balls 80% of the time, and your opponent leaves you 7 balls, where you know you are 50/50 on running out 7, you'll probably end up leaving your opponent the last 1 or 2 balls half the time.


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08-01-2019, 10:06 AM

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... I'd want a score of at least 11-3, where I win better than 80% of the games. Then I'll know without a doubt that my ability to run out if my opponent leaves the last 4 is very good. Once I am 80 to 90% or better on 4 balls I'd add two more balls and see how I handle that.
...
If you play the ghost even it will keep you at the edge of your ability and always be a challenge. Some people find that too stressful. Your way of needing to beat him like a rented mule before moving on to a tougher level will be more comfortable for such people. I think in general it's better to practice in situations that are not in your comfort zone.


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08-01-2019, 10:15 AM

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Originally Posted by judochoke View Post
... so I set up his 9 ball pattern, and it was pretty easy to hit all 9 balls in. will this help in any way to help me improve my 9 ball game???? by doing it over and over again?? ...
To answer this question directly -- I think it will help only if the particular pattern lets you work on shots you have trouble with. You need to work on your weaknesses. You need to identify your weaknesses. You may be able to do that by noting which kinds of shots you consistently have trouble with. A good instructor can help with the diagnosis.


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08-01-2019, 11:36 AM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
If you play the ghost even it will keep you at the edge of your ability and always be a challenge. Some people find that too stressful. Your way of needing to beat him like a rented mule before moving on to a tougher level will be more comfortable for such people. I think in general it's better to practice in situations that are not in your comfort zone.
You've misunderstood me. I'm not saying you need to continually beat the ghost "like a rented mule". I'm saying you should set a scoring goal of winning at least 8 games for every 2 losses. No different than practicing a particular shot until you are consistently 80% or better at successfully executing it. This style of racing the ghost gives players the confidence of knowing their limitations when faced with a 4, 5, 6 or 9 ball runout.

Of course the goal should be just out of reach, just out of your comfort zone but not so challenging that it seems hopeless. The comfortable goal of simply beating the ghost regardless of the score gives one the false confidence that they can get out more often than they really can. Setting a particular score goal before progressing from 3 balls to 4, or 4 to 5 or 6 or whatever, makes it more challenging than just saying you have to beat the ghost. It's definitely pushing the limits beyond the comfort zone.


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08-01-2019, 12:04 PM

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Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
You've misunderstood me. I'm not saying you need to continually beat the ghost "like a rented mule". I'm saying you should set a scoring goal of winning at least 8 games for every 2 losses. No different than practicing a particular shot until you are consistently 80% or better at successfully executing it. This style of racing the ghost gives players the confidence of knowing their limitations when faced with a 4, 5, 6 or 9 ball runout.

Of course the goal should be just out of reach, just out of your comfort zone but not so challenging that it seems hopeless. The comfortable goal of simply beating the ghost regardless of the score gives one the false confidence that they can get out more often than they really can. Setting a particular score goal before progressing from 3 balls to 4, or 4 to 5 or 6 or whatever, makes it more challenging than just saying you have to beat the ghost. It's definitely pushing the limits beyond the comfort zone.
I see three possible ways to adjust (add/subtract a ball):
- after every game
- after every set (any win/loss)
- after every set (must win x%)

I'd probably like to adjust after every game - to keep a constant runlength score and get instant reward/punishment. I think the immediacy of that would keep me the most focused.

Also, it can be done in any short period of available time (although of course longer is better).

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08-01-2019, 12:09 PM

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You've misunderstood me. I'm not saying you need to continually beat the ghost "like a rented mule". I'm saying you should set a scoring goal of winning at least 8 games for every 2 losses. ...
But beating a person by 20%/80% all the time is to seriously dominate them to the point they have no chance in a long match. That is equivalent to being 200 FargoRate points above them.

I think I did understand what you said. For me 8-2 or 11-3 is a rented mule event.


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08-01-2019, 12:50 PM

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But beating a person by 20%/80% all the time is to seriously dominate them to the point they have no chance in a long match. That is equivalent to being 200 FargoRate points above them.

I think I did understand what you said. For me 8-2 or 11-3 is a rented mule event.
Lol. If you want to be 200 fargo points above your competition, it makes sense to practice in manner that pushes you toward that goal. I guess when I used to make time for practice I liked getting more out of it than just knowing I could beat the 4 ball or 6 ball ghost. I wanted to dominate the 4 and 6 ball ghosts. In a real game situation it's nice to know your odds of getting out.

Just being able to beat the 9 ball or 10 ball ghost, however, is quite good enough to be very competitive. But when we're talking about 4 balls, or 6 balls, not a full rack, simply beating the ghost isn't the most beneficial goal.

Let's say I play the 4 ball ghost and win 10-8. With a score that close it could've gone either way - win or lose. I would not feel confident with that result, knowing it means that I could only run 4 balls a little better than half the time. So I'd keep playing the ghost at this 4 ball level until I knew without a doubt that I could run any group of 4 balls 80% of the time or better. My goal would be 10_2 or 11-3, which would require serious effort and 100% focus on each shot. Once the goal is reached, you move on. With this confidence I would then progress to another ball or two, and so on.


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08-01-2019, 01:15 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I see three possible ways to adjust (add/subtract a ball):
- after every game
- after every set (any win/loss)
- after every set (must win x%)

I'd probably like to adjust after every game - to keep a constant runlength score and get instant reward/punishment. I think the immediacy of that would keep me the most focused.

Also, it can be done in any short period of available time (although of course longer is better).

pj
chgo
Makes sense. I like accomplishing multiple things within a single time period. By tracking your wins vs loses when racing the ghost, you get more than just the satisfaction of beating the ghost. You also get much needed knowledge about your game, your skill level -- a realistic idea of what you can do with a ball in hand and the last 3, 4, 5, or 6 balls. This is why I like setting a goal of beating the 4 ball ghost like a "rented mule", as Bob put it, before progessing to 6 balls or a full rack. If you can run 4 balls 8 or 9 times out of 10, you'll probably do a fine job beating the 9 ball or 10 ball ghost, where the actual score will no longer matter -- just winning is the goal.


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08-01-2019, 02:36 PM

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Originally Posted by judochoke View Post
I was watching the guy rotation master you tube channel, and I noticed on his 9 ball runout he never missed. then I found out he has set up his pattern, and hits it over and over again. of coarse he's not going to miss, because he knows the pattern by heart.

so I set up his 9 ball pattern, and it was pretty easy to hit all 9 balls in. will this help in any way to help me improve my 9 ball game???? by doing it over and over again??

I freaking love 9 ball. I could practice it forever. BUT, its very hard to make 9 balls with perfect position for me, a lower player. so now im on 7 balls, and I can sometime run the rack, sometimes not. im doing all the basic stuff, looking at 3 balls ahead, using rails, ect, ect, but once I get out of line my goose is normally cooked.

am I expecting to much, to be able to beat the ghost at 9 ball in only one year of practicing
daily?

WILL I EVER GET THERE?
Rotation master is more serious about entertaining, then pool. When I view someone's channel, the first thing I look at is their stroke. If they take drills and practicing seriously, they'll have a good stroke. That's what gets my attention and interest.

One thing that made me instantly leave his channel, is the way he treats his cue smacking the balls around. That's like looking at a big girl wearing a belly shirt. Sorry, but no thanks. There's much better quality videos worth checking out then this.
  
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