I thought the safety was hanging out with the pool crew
he probably told the secret to one of his living buddies
Deep Knowledge
- Thread starter lfigueroa
- Start date
I thought the safety was hanging out with the pool crew
he probably told the secret to one of his living buddies
That's a very delicate safety. Pat knows how!
Like Grady I feel very fortunate to have seen all these guys play and gamble in the prime of their careers, with Rood being the exception to the latter.
Where to start? I guess with George since I had the good fortune to grow up in Dayton, Ohio where he lived. He made frequent appearances at the Cue and Bridge poolroom in Northtown Shopping Center on N. Main St., a place I used to hang out after school. Several days a week he would come in and get a set of balls and practice on the front table. First maybe six to eight racks of Straight Pool and them maybe a half hour of 9-Ball, just breaking and running racks. I could see he was a very good player because when the other local champs came in they just said hello to him and left him alone. Rarely did I ever see George play anyone. He was already in his late 40's to early 50's and his road days were long since over.
Once in a while a road man would come in looking for a game and someone would summon George to accommodate him. Maybe thirty minutes later he would come in and check with whoever called him (usually Russ Maddox) and get himself introduced to the road man who had been practicing all this time. They would make a game (almost always 9-Ball, but I saw him play Straights once or twice) and George would put together his cue and they would start without him hitting one practice ball. Ten or twenty dollar 9-Ball was the norm and I never saw anyone beat George! Some pretty fair players stopped in there (Ed Kelly, Joey Spaeth, Johnny Ervolino, Teddie Elias, Chuck Morgan, Johnny Overton, Larry Ridgeway) and it always ended the same way. George had the money and a handshake.
An added bonus was that George's old friends, like Luther Lassiter, Eddie Taylor and Don Willis would come by when they were in the area to say hi to him. They would sit there and gab about the old days and never hit a ball. When Fats came in for an exhibition he saw George sitting there and immediately went over and said hello to him. He showed deference to George all day, complimenting him profusely during his exhibition.
Next there's Beenie, who took a liking to me for whatever reason. He let me partner up with him on a couple of occasions even though I didn't have a lot of money to throw in with him. I gave him all I had in my pocket and trusted that we had good action. Twice I won thousands being his partner in a Blackjack game, and at my second L.A. Open I let him set up his Keno board at night and every day he handed me another 500! Billy was a gifted gambler and the smoothest talker I ever saw. He could charm the clothes off your back. He was a very intelligent man with a good vocabulary, who played a good game of pool. Not as good as the top players but he knew what he needed to beat them.
Eddie Taylor I didn't really have a relationship with, other than I admired his Bank Pool skills. To this day I've never seen his equal at that game. He hit just about every bank at warp speed and they all went toward the hole. I was always surprised if the ball hit a point and didn't go in. With Taylor you never expected him to miss a bank! He is the only man I ever saw throw all fifteen balls on the table and bank every one in. That was how he practiced when he appeared at the Cue and Bridge. He would shoot five to ten racks just to get the feel of the table and then he was done. I'm sure I saw him make all fifteen once and maybe twice. He has the all time record for 37 consecutive banks! Thank about it.
Then there's CORNBREAD RED, the man who brought me to putting marks on paper about him. He is by far the most outspoken and confident man I ever met in a poolroom. If he said he was going to beat you and eat you, you'd better run! Red backed down from no man, whether he be a poolplayer or an outlaw. And no one messed with Red either and he went where he wanted to go and played whoever he wanted to play. He was a non discriminatory pool hustler! I saw him back down Steve Mizerak at Straight Pool when Steve was the U.S. Open champion. Steve wanted to play 150 points for $100 and Red asked him how much money he had on him. When Steve responded proudly that he had $1,000, Red told him he would play him fifty points of 14.1 for the $1,000! Steve got scared and left the room. Red is another guy who Fats was careful around, always being respectful when talking about him, and not bragging/lying about beating him like he did with other players.
Red probably had the most powerful stroke in pool back in the days of the slow cloth. He would pound balls into the pocket and drive that cue ball around the table. The bigger the bet the better he played! He did something I never saw anyone else do in a money game. When he reached the hill in a 9-Ball match, he liked to leave himself long and straight in on the last nine ball. Then he would fire the ball in at 100 mph as if to emphasize that he just beat you! I would think to myself why did he have to hit it so hard. It was only later that I realized if was a psychological move to keep you weak.
I lived in a golden era of pool, when the game was populated with so many interesting characters. I was a spectator to greatness!
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Great stories!
Great stories Jay!
Hu
Like Grady I feel very fortunate to have seen all these guys play and gamble in the prime of their careers, with Rood being the exception to the latter.
Where to start? I guess with George since I had the good fortune to grow up in Dayton, Ohio where he lived. He made frequent appearances at the Cue and Bridge poolroom in Northtown Shopping Center on N. Main St., a place I used to hang out after school. Several days a week he would come in and get a set of balls and practice on the front table. First maybe six to eight racks of Straight Pool and them maybe a half hour of 9-Ball, just breaking and running racks. I could see he was a very good player because when the other local champs came in they just said hello to him and left him alone. Rarely did I ever see George play anyone. He was already in his late 40's to early 50's and his road days were long since over.
Once in a while a road man would come in looking for a game and someone would summon George to accommodate him. Maybe thirty minutes later he would come in and check with whoever called him (usually Russ Maddox) and get himself introduced to the road man who had been practicing all this time. They would make a game (almost always 9-Ball, but I saw him play Straights once or twice) and George would put together his cue and they would start without him hitting one practice ball. Ten or twenty dollar 9-Ball was the norm and I never saw anyone beat George! Some pretty fair players stopped in there (Ed Kelly, Joey Spaeth, Johnny Ervolino, Teddie Elias, Chuck Morgan, Johnny Overton, Larry Ridgeway) and it always ended the same way. George had the money and a handshake.
An added bonus was that George's old friends, like Luther Lassiter, Eddie Taylor and Don Willis would come by when they were in the area to say hi to him. They would sit there and gab about the old days and never hit a ball. When Fats came in for an exhibition he saw George sitting there and immediately went over and said hello to him. He showed deference to George all day, complimenting him profusely during his exhibition.
Next there's Beenie, who took a liking to me for whatever reason. He let me partner up with him on a couple of occasions even though I didn't have a lot of money to throw in with him. I gave him all I had in my pocket and trusted that we had good action. Twice I won thousands being his partner in a Blackjack game, and at my second L.A. Open I let him set up his Keno board at night and every day he handed me another 500! Billy was a gifted gambler and the smoothest talker I ever saw. He could charm the clothes off your back. He was a very intelligent man with a good vocabulary, who played a good game of pool. Not as good as the top players but he knew what he needed to beat them.
Eddie Taylor I didn't really have a relationship with, other than I admired his Bank Pool skills. To this day I've never seen his equal at that game. He hit just about every bank at warp speed and they all went toward the hole. I was always surprised if the ball hit a point and didn't go in. With Taylor you never expected him to miss a bank! He is the only man I ever saw throw all fifteen balls on the table and bank every one in. That was how he practiced when he appeared at the Cue and Bridge. He would shoot five to ten racks just to get the feel of the table and then he was done. I'm sure I saw him make all fifteen once and maybe twice. He has the all time record for 37 consecutive banks! Thank about it.
Then there's CORNBREAD RED, the man who brought me to putting marks on paper about him. He is by far the most outspoken and confident man I ever met in a poolroom. If he said he was going to beat you and eat you, you'd better run! Red backed down from no man, whether he be a poolplayer or an outlaw. And no one messed with Red either and he went where he wanted to go and played whoever he wanted to play. He was a non discriminatory pool hustler! I saw him back down Steve Mizerak at Straight Pool when Steve was the U.S. Open champion. Steve wanted to play 150 points for $100 and Red asked him how much money he had on him. When Steve responded proudly that he had $1,000, Red told him he would play him fifty points of 14.1 for the $1,000! Steve got scared and left the room. Red is another guy who Fats was careful around, always being respectful when talking about him, and not bragging/lying about beating him like he did with other players.
Red probably had the most powerful stroke in pool back in the days of the slow cloth. He would pound balls into the pocket and drive that cue ball around the table. The bigger the bet the better he played! He did something I never saw anyone else do in a money game. When he reached the hill in a 9-Ball match, he liked to leave himself long and straight in on the last nine ball. Then he would fire the ball in at 100 mph as if to emphasize that he just beat you! I would think to myself why did he have to hit it so hard. It was only later that I realized if was a psychological move to keep you weak.
I lived in a golden era of pool, when the game was populated with so many interesting characters. I was a spectator to greatness!
Great stories Jay!
Hu
That's an excellent shot, but I would call it a standard advanced safety that all decent players should consciously be aware of. It has appeared in print, in game play and in that video. I don't think that qualifies as "deep knowledge". Corner-hook safes at one pocket using the corner pockets are similar.
I think there are lots of tips and techniques that are not yet in print. I learned one not too long ago about exactly which ball to expect to be able to shoot after a standard break-out at straight pool as well as the probable ball after that one.
Here is another from 14.1 that I learned by watching Irving Crane play it multiple times, nearly always with good results. The rack has somehow been screwed up on the final few balls. There is no break ball but there is a ball in the rack area. You leave it there and position the cue ball like this:
![CropperCapture[45].jpg](https://forums.azbilliards.com/data/attachments/412/412358-0986c06937f6472c209ffb2eb7dbb912.jpg "CropperCapture[45].jpg")
That's about a half-ball cut. Crane would play the shot with outside follow, the cue ball would hit just above the side pocket, hit the rack right between the top two balls, go to the side cushion and spin out to the center of the table. Like clockwork. It was amazing. He would almost always have a shot from the center of the table.
The shot requires knowledge, skill, and some practice. You have to be ready for different cut angles.
I learned that shot at a time when there were no videos. You had to put yourself in the company of top players by going to tournaments. You didn't have to play, because the players were always showing stuff on the practice tables and in the matches themselves.
A more recent example was at the first Matchroom US Open 9-Ball in Las Vegas. Corey had learned a new break at nine ball, and he was showing Billy Thorpe on a practice table while I was a fly on the wall. The refs were racking in that tournament, so you couldn't use it every rack. It was a two or three shot sequence starting from the break shot. The final shot was to play an x-9 combination to carom the 9 off a specific ball near the foot cushion and into the corner pocket. Not possible, you say? I saw Corey use it twice in one match.
I could hit that shot, but I'd never think of it (until now). Is that deep knowledge?
pj <- not that Pat
chgo
There aren't a whole lot of secrets in this game. Some of the things mentioned as deep knowledge
have been around for a long time. The things like putting people in a situation where they can't
reach something due to height or off handedness have been known for eons. At least I'd think that's
the case. Obviously I haven't been around for eons but it was something I became aware of a long
time ago.
I started playing Larry Johnson about 40 years ago. It was common knowledge that his height was a
disadvantage to be used against him. I certainly wouldn't call that deep knowledge, it's just
common sense. It wasn't a big edge because Shorty was very good left handed and very good with
the bridge. Nevertheless, it was a slight edge but it wasn't a secret. (Jumping wasn't a
consideration back then but if it had been you can rest assured people would have been aware of it, common pool intelligence was around long before 2019 Stu)
Other things, like trying to throw people off their game using certain tactics have also been
around forever. Not that they won't work at times.
It's just that they only usually work on people that you probably were going to beat anyway.
So put me down in the no category. I'd say it does exist but I'd also say that it has no bearing
on 99.9% of players or their questions on how to improve their game.
Referring to what I highlighted in PJ's statement, I'm in complete and total agreement with what he said.
In addition, because I think he's mostly referring to how an elite player executes a shot or obtains a certain position, is the thought process that got them there.
When you're talking about the average player, things like aiming, stroke, english, knowledge, experience, etc. can be used to distinguish between individuals competency.
Once you get to the upper echelon everyone is extremely competent in all those areas.
IMO the area of separation is largely due to quality of thought process.
Absolutely yes. I've seen the same thing you're talking about in other sports as well. Not every lesson is available in a text book, or YouTube video. To quote the great Lee "Buck" Trevino..."Sometimes it has to be dug out of the dirt."
Like Grady I feel very fortunate to have seen all these guys play and gamble in the prime of their careers, with Rood being the exception to the latter.
Where to start? I guess with George since I had the good fortune to grow up in Dayton, Ohio where he lived. He made frequent appearances at the Cue and Bridge poolroom in Northtown Shopping Center on N. Main St., a place I used to hang out after school. Several days a week he would come in and get a set of balls and practice on the front table. First maybe six to eight racks of Straight Pool and them maybe a half hour of 9-Ball, just breaking and running racks. I could see he was a very good player because when the other local champs came in they just said hello to him and left him alone. Rarely did I ever see George play anyone. He was already in his late 40's to early 50's and his road days were long since over.
Once in a while a road man would come in looking for a game and someone would summon George to accommodate him. Maybe thirty minutes later he would come in and check with whoever called him (usually Russ Maddox) and get himself introduced to the road man who had been practicing all this time. They would make a game (almost always 9-Ball, but I saw him play Straights once or twice) and George would put together his cue and they would start without him hitting one practice ball. Ten or twenty dollar 9-Ball was the norm and I never saw anyone beat George! Some pretty fair players stopped in there (Ed Kelly, Joey Spaeth, Johnny Ervolino, Teddie Elias, Chuck Morgan, Johnny Overton, Larry Ridgeway) and it always ended the same way. George had the money and a handshake.
An added bonus was that George's old friends, like Luther Lassiter, Eddie Taylor and Don Willis would come by when they were in the area to say hi to him. They would sit there and gab about the old days and never hit a ball. When Fats came in for an exhibition he saw George sitting there and immediately went over and said hello to him. He showed deference to George all day, complimenting him profusely during his exhibition.
Next there's Beenie, who took a liking to me for whatever reason. He let me partner up with him on a couple of occasions even though I didn't have a lot of money to throw in with him. I gave him all I had in my pocket and trusted that we had good action. Twice I won thousands being his partner in a Blackjack game, and at my second L.A. Open I let him set up his Keno board at night and every day he handed me another 500! Billy was a gifted gambler and the smoothest talker I ever saw. He could charm the clothes off your back. He was a very intelligent man with a good vocabulary, who played a good game of pool. Not as good as the top players but he knew what he needed to beat them.
Eddie Taylor I didn't really have a relationship with, other than I admired his Bank Pool skills. To this day I've never seen his equal at that game. He hit just about every bank at warp speed and they all went toward the hole. I was always surprised if the ball hit a point and didn't go in. With Taylor you never expected him to miss a bank! He is the only man I ever saw throw all fifteen balls on the table and bank every one in. That was how he practiced when he appeared at the Cue and Bridge. He would shoot five to ten racks just to get the feel of the table and then he was done. I'm sure I saw him make all fifteen once and maybe twice. He has the all time record for 37 consecutive banks! Thank about it.
Then there's CORNBREAD RED, the man who brought me to putting marks on paper about him. He is by far the most outspoken and confident man I ever met in a poolroom. If he said he was going to beat you and eat you, you'd better run! Red backed down from no man, whether he be a poolplayer or an outlaw. And no one messed with Red either and he went where he wanted to go and played whoever he wanted to play. He was a non discriminatory pool hustler! I saw him back down Steve Mizerak at Straight Pool when Steve was the U.S. Open champion. Steve wanted to play 150 points for $100 and Red asked him how much money he had on him. When Steve responded proudly that he had $1,000, Red told him he would play him fifty points of 14.1 for the $1,000! Steve got scared and left the room. Red is another guy who Fats was careful around, always being respectful when talking about him, and not bragging/lying about beating him like he did with other players.
Red probably had the most powerful stroke in pool back in the days of the slow cloth. He would pound balls into the pocket and drive that cue ball around the table. The bigger the bet the better he played! He did something I never saw anyone else do in a money game. When he reached the hill in a 9-Ball match, he liked to leave himself long and straight in on the last nine ball. Then he would fire the ball in at 100 mph as if to emphasize that he just beat you! I would think to myself why did he have to hit it so hard. It was only later that I realized if was a psychological move to keep you weak.
I lived in a golden era of pool, when the game was populated with so many interesting characters. I was a spectator to greatness!
Really fine copy.
Yes, there is.
Games like straight pool and one pocket, but also 8 ball have certain patterns, ways of shooting that are higher percentage. It took me almost a decade to figure out certain straight pool patterns and every nuance of safety play. Of course there is still much to learn.
The problem with pool is that you can often shoot your way out of a bad situation with pure talent/luck, and never learn the actual correct way of shooting. Since the form of the player fluctuates, he may never understand that he simply shoots the wrong shots and instead believe he's in a slump when maybe he isn't.
I believe many common teachings about pool to be outright wrong, and more a result of blindly copying rather than actually analyzing why the technique seems to be working for a certain player.
Some knowledge is not available until the shooting ability is there. The player can't perform at the level needed to use the technique. Obviously that's the deepest knowledge, the real master class stuff.
Games like straight pool and one pocket, but also 8 ball have certain patterns, ways of shooting that are higher percentage. It took me almost a decade to figure out certain straight pool patterns and every nuance of safety play. Of course there is still much to learn.
The problem with pool is that you can often shoot your way out of a bad situation with pure talent/luck, and never learn the actual correct way of shooting. Since the form of the player fluctuates, he may never understand that he simply shoots the wrong shots and instead believe he's in a slump when maybe he isn't.
I believe many common teachings about pool to be outright wrong, and more a result of blindly copying rather than actually analyzing why the technique seems to be working for a certain player.
Some knowledge is not available until the shooting ability is there. The player can't perform at the level needed to use the technique. Obviously that's the deepest knowledge, the real master class stuff.
At one time maybe but not today , I'd say its common knowledge that's being taught , and it's simply work ethic , in combination with the teaching that's producing the Top players in the world , I highly doubt you will ever see another top player in the world that doesn't follow that path
1
Yes
ABSOLUTELY!
No one said 'secret' knowledge. I'm not saying it's anything that hasn't been discovered. But there are some important lessons in pool most people don't learn because as Straightpool said they get to where they can run a few racks and think they know it all.
Another challenge is with youtube instruction. Youtube is geared towards more basic instruction as there are thousands of lower ranked players for every player trying to compete with the pros. So you can get 500K views with a video on how to aim but might not get 100 with advanced topics that only apply to a few. So when people watch all the videos on Youtube they think that's the end of the road, but it's actually the beginning. I say this with due respect to our own Dr. Dave who is the exception and has contributed countless essential videos on kicking, pattern play, and other topics, and Sharivari who is having some good conversations about position play. I also am a fan of TOR, big time. But you get my meaning.
ABSOLUTELY!
No one said 'secret' knowledge. I'm not saying it's anything that hasn't been discovered. But there are some important lessons in pool most people don't learn because as Straightpool said they get to where they can run a few racks and think they know it all.
Another challenge is with youtube instruction. Youtube is geared towards more basic instruction as there are thousands of lower ranked players for every player trying to compete with the pros. So you can get 500K views with a video on how to aim but might not get 100 with advanced topics that only apply to a few. So when people watch all the videos on Youtube they think that's the end of the road, but it's actually the beginning. I say this with due respect to our own Dr. Dave who is the exception and has contributed countless essential videos on kicking, pattern play, and other topics, and Sharivari who is having some good conversations about position play. I also am a fan of TOR, big time. But you get my meaning.
Wow, I didn't know these moves could be memorized by children. It is almost beyond the imagination that the millions of potential scenarios can be memorized. This is why some people are exceptional beyond what we think of as usual human limits.
I’m quoting you out of context. But the OP seemed to clearly be talking about ‘secret’ knowledge with framing the conversation in terms of how it was passed from father to son, hoarded, and taken to the grave.
I think that perhaps contrasts with the idea of specialized knowledge solely earned through quality practice, competition, coming with it, instruction and research. Then again, yesterday’s secrets sometimes become today’s instruction, e.g. spot on the wall.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Good point!
Good point! I stand corrected!
I guess the word secret is a strange one. Secret to who? I mean, in order for it to be knowledge it has to be known by someone, making it no longer secret from at least them. It's almost an oxymoron.
So I took it to mean "knowledge the majority of pool players aren't armed with". My point is that this knowledge isn't being kept away in a vault somewhere, spoken about only by great players that change the subject when a civilian enters the room. It's simply knowledge that is overlooked by the majority.
I know there is a lot I don't know about this game. I also know I haven't met anyone that I couldn't show a few things, big or small.
Good point! I stand corrected!
I guess the word secret is a strange one. Secret to who? I mean, in order for it to be knowledge it has to be known by someone, making it no longer secret from at least them. It's almost an oxymoron.
So I took it to mean "knowledge the majority of pool players aren't armed with". My point is that this knowledge isn't being kept away in a vault somewhere, spoken about only by great players that change the subject when a civilian enters the room. It's simply knowledge that is overlooked by the majority.
I know there is a lot I don't know about this game. I also know I haven't met anyone that I couldn't show a few things, big or small.
As Maurice Daly put it 107 years ago, the worst thing that can happen for a player is to shoot the wrong shot and have it turn out well.
I think I did intend to imply secrecy using the term "deep knowledge."
Meaning, knowledge that the vast majority of players do not possess regardless of how long they've played and how many instructional books, DVDs, and YouTubes they've watched. Take Wille Mosconi as an example. Yes, he was a prodigy, a savant. But in learning the game so early in his development did he see and learn connections, patterns, and techniques that others miss? Was it just that he "did things better" that allowed him to run so many balls and win so many championships?
Or did he know stuff?
I've been fortunate in that I've had the opportunity to take lessons from Steve "The Cookie Monster" Cook, Dallas West, and Ray Martin. And one of the things I like to do when I'm with guys like that is to ask them about various 14.1 break shots. They often surprise me.
I mean, though I'm no champion, I've been playing the game for decades and have run 100 a few times. Yet they surprise me with what I would call deep knowledge about going into the stack, as well as other things. During one lesson I asked RM how he'd shoot a particular break shot and he said something like, "Follow with some inside." So then I set up another shot, nominally different, and ask the same question. And he says, "Follow." And I'm like, "Really?" And Ray says, "Go ahead and shoot it." And I do -- with just follow -- and the balls open up and the CB is near the center of the table. Who knew -- I certainly didn't.
When guys say there's no such thing as deep knowledge it kinda makes me think they believe they know the best way to shoot every shot, or at an even more basic level, what shot to shoot at any given point in a pattern. I don't know about you but unless they're a champion, I don't believe that to be so.
Lou Figueroa
Meaning, knowledge that the vast majority of players do not possess regardless of how long they've played and how many instructional books, DVDs, and YouTubes they've watched. Take Wille Mosconi as an example. Yes, he was a prodigy, a savant. But in learning the game so early in his development did he see and learn connections, patterns, and techniques that others miss? Was it just that he "did things better" that allowed him to run so many balls and win so many championships?
Or did he know stuff?
I've been fortunate in that I've had the opportunity to take lessons from Steve "The Cookie Monster" Cook, Dallas West, and Ray Martin. And one of the things I like to do when I'm with guys like that is to ask them about various 14.1 break shots. They often surprise me.
I mean, though I'm no champion, I've been playing the game for decades and have run 100 a few times. Yet they surprise me with what I would call deep knowledge about going into the stack, as well as other things. During one lesson I asked RM how he'd shoot a particular break shot and he said something like, "Follow with some inside." So then I set up another shot, nominally different, and ask the same question. And he says, "Follow." And I'm like, "Really?" And Ray says, "Go ahead and shoot it." And I do -- with just follow -- and the balls open up and the CB is near the center of the table. Who knew -- I certainly didn't.
When guys say there's no such thing as deep knowledge it kinda makes me think they believe they know the best way to shoot every shot, or at an even more basic level, what shot to shoot at any given point in a pattern. I don't know about you but unless they're a champion, I don't believe that to be so.
Lou Figueroa
I feel like every skill based "thing" has something that just can't be taught. The person needs to discover it on their own. Pool is no different... there is a point in pool where things just "click", but you need to make the "click" happen... the lifetime Skill Level 3 League Player will never experience that as pool is an excuse to go hang out with friends/drink and have some friendly competition...
The players that want to get better, want their skill level to go up, want to snap off tournaments, want to beat people in action... they are the ones that the "click" happens for... they are the ones that will not only play pool, but be actual pool players.
The players that want to get better, want their skill level to go up, want to snap off tournaments, want to beat people in action... they are the ones that the "click" happens for... they are the ones that will not only play pool, but be actual pool players.