Rule Question

14-1StraightMan said:

I was playing a match when my opponent played a soft safe off the rack attempting to send the cue up table but the cue ball never made it to a rail. As I was getting out of my chair, my opponent picked up the cue ball. I told him that I believe that is a 15 point foul. He stated No it wasn't. I did not know where to find the rule. I gave him his way only taking one point off and I then had to take the cue in the kitchen which turned out bad for me because I scratch off the rack. I felt it really worked against me and he was the one who picked up the cue ball. Need some help...

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It sounds like your opponent didn't know the rules and thought a bad hit resulted in ball in hand. If so, then the cue ball should have been restored and he should have suffered a one point foul. If you think it was an unsportsmanlike act such as intentionally affecting the integrity of the game, then it should have been a 16 point foul; one point for the foul and 15 points for the serious foul penalty, in which case you would have the option of playing the cue from position, taking ball in hand from the kitchen or forcing your opponent to shoot an opening break shot (BCAPL rule 6-17).

14-1StraightMan said:

I was playing a match when my opponent played a soft safe off the rack attempting to send the cue up table but the cue ball never made it to a rail. As I was getting out of my chair, my opponent picked up the cue ball. I told him that I believe that is a 15 point foul. He stated No it wasn't. I did not know where to find the rule. I gave him his way only taking one point off and I then had to take the cue in the kitchen which turned out bad for me because I scratch off the rack. I felt it really worked against me and he was the one who picked up the cue ball. Need some help...

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Yeah, I think the way Jim laid it out was right. The only way you get to the fifteen point foul is through the mechanism of unsportsmanlike conduct.

"6.17 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul, but the referee may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct. Among other penalties possible are a warning; a standard-foul penalty, which will count as part of a three-foul sequence if applicable; a serious-foul penalty; loss of a rack, set or match; ejection from the competition possibly with forfeiture of all prizes, trophies and standings points.
Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent;
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
(d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended;
(e) practicing during a match;
(f) marking the table;
(g) delay of the game; and
(h) using equipment inappropriately."

It did not sound like unsportsmanlike conduct, the way you described it, but then I always had trouble figuring out how tapping the cue ball with your ferrule was unsportsmanlike and how catching the cue ball as it enters the pocket is unsportsmanlike.

If he was on a foul, you did not need to make a legal hit. Was there any other way you could have optimized your advantage? intentional foul available?

Had he left the cue ball in the kitchen before he picked it up. If so, if you took ball in hand in the kitchen you were probably a little better off than had he kept his mitts off it.

You need to familiarize yourself with the rules. First, it isn't bih behind the rack. Second, if your opponent is on more fouls than you then you can take an intentional foul and put the onus on your opponent.

14-1StraightMan said:

I did not explain this situation properly the first time. After the cue ball softly made contact with the rack and was headed for up table. It was rolling too slowly, it was obviously that it was not going to even make the kitchen area.... He touched the cue ball with his cue stick and then picked it up...... The cue ball was at the point where it might of been still rolling or just stopped when he touched it with his cue stick.... Anyways, after we went back and forth... I wasn't sure where the real placement of the cue ball was, so I had too take it in the kitchen........ Thanks Jim and Dennis for your comments..... alstl, I have no idea what you are trying to say. I will try to learn all the rules.

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Afaic, it's an unsportsmanlike intentional foul as he not only impeded the path of the ball with his cue, but again interfered with his hand. 15 + 1. Rerack if you choose.

Hard to tell this person's frame of mind based on an explanation rather than experiencing his demeanor at the table, at the time.

Was he honestly unaware it wasn't going to be bih?

If he thought is was bih, and as you mentioned, it was obviously not going to make it to the rail, then his frustration wasn't intended to interfere with anything.

I think what alstl meant was.... regardless, he was on the first foul after that shot, and if shooting was the worst end of it for you, you might have simply stuck him by taking a foul yourself if needed. You were not under the gun to shoot at all no matter what.

Bob Jewett said:

... but you have to warn your opponent that he risks the loss of 15 points if he gets three fouls.

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More specifically, don't you have to warn him he is "on 2" once he has two fouls and not before?

my 2 cents

Technically, it an unsportsmanlike conduct foul. 1 point foul for not hitting a rail after contact and 15 points for the unsportsmanlike act.

But if a player doesn't know 14.1 well enough to know that, then he most likely is not going to win anyway so I don't call him on it. Just put the CB close to where it would have been and play on. :wink:

and, after any player commits a second consecutive foul, you have to tell or remind that player that he is "on two fouls" as he approaches the table for his next turn. Not when he actually makes the second foul. If you don't tell him "you are on two fouls" as he goes to the table and he fouls again then it only counts as his second foul once again.

If the contact was made, unintentionally, with the cue ball upon or after striking the ball, that would be a -1 foul penalty. If your opponent then proceeded to pick up the cue ball, then that would be considered a "deliberate foul" (BCA official rules wording) and that would result in a -16 foul penalty. However, if your opponent does not know this rule, then you cannot reasonably enforce it. If this was a league match and you called your opponent on such a foul then you should expect the call to be upheld by your league operator.

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I believe the discussions regarding judgement is based on what Bob Jewett said, ignorance versus malice. This is usually obvious in most cases since I would say that the straight pool community considers straight pool to be a game that is associated with a higher standard of sportsmanship. Another consideration is that as straight pool players, we are usually trying to encourage non-straight pool players to try our game and therefore, we may be lenient with the rules initially.

If you don't agree with that premise, I would suggest enforcing every rule regardless of the player's experience and expect that your opponent will enforce every rule as well.

9BallJim said:

I believe the discussions regarding judgement is based on what Bob Jewett said, ignorance versus malice. This is usually obvious in most cases since I would say that the straight pool community considers straight pool to be a game that is associated with a higher standard of sportsmanship. Another consideration is that as straight pool players, we are usually trying to encourage non-straight pool players to try our game and therefore, we may be lenient with the rules initially.

If you don't agree with that premise, I would suggest enforcing every rule regardless of the player's experience and expect that your opponent will enforce every rule as well.

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I agree with you and Bob in interpreting the situation we were given using WPA rules.

If you are using the WPA rules, the only way you get to the 15 point foul we are discussing is through unsportsmanlike conduct and for that you need intent.

Of course, if you are running your own league and using a modified version of the rules, you are free to do anything you want.

I struggled with this initially when setting up the rules for our league. The BCA wording is very clear about the "deliberate foul rule" when obstructing the path of the cue ball or any ball. In the end I decided that it is better to have clear rules that everyone is made aware of. "I didn't know that" is not an acceptable response when these situations come up. If your just playing a friendly game then you can be more loose about these things. But for league play, rules should be clearly laid out, and it's everyone's responsibility to know them, no excuses.

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Bob Jewett said:

I agree with you. Players should know the rules. In snooker the referee is not allowed to say which rule might apply to a shot or to explain any rule. Unfortunately, this is not the tradition at pool. At the present US Open 9-ball, almost none of the players know the rules. That includes most of the top players. I know this because I'm a ref at the event.

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Wow!

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