An open conversation on what pool in North America needs and can support.

JCIN said:

The eurotour wouldn't last a year here. Its an even worse financial proposition for players than what the U.S. has. The player culture in Europe is completely different than here. Which is almost certainly a good thing.

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One very large difference between the US and some European/Asian countries....sponsorship. If you're the best in your country you are treated well, may have a monthly stipend, possibly accommodations taken care of and people will be funneled to you for lessons. In the US you get looked down upon, thought of as a hopeless gambler and are constantly compared to (and losing to) a large pizza.


Neil

I am no expert here, and in reading some of the posts here, neither is anyone else, but it seems a common sense approach to the matter is needed.
Take the best parts of the WPBA, for instance, and use that as a start point. Throw out the parts that didn't work.
Establish a board of directors (call it what you will) with strong leadership, but keep it small. A Director, an Assistant Director, a Secretary, and a Treasurer. Along with them add one players representative, one media technician, one trade liaison, and one tournament specialist.
Establish strict guidelines for all aspects of the operation, and keep outside influences to an absolute minimum.
Good luck. :smile:

SJDinPHX said:

Justin,

I always enjoy your insight and comments, on the state of the pool world. You surely have the knowledge, given your time and efforts with TAR..I miss the TAR match-ups, and I always tried to be supportive, as you always tried to put on a good show. I can only assume that your involvement in TAR, was more a 'labor of love' for you, than a way to make a decent living. I'm sure you must have had your share of bad days, otherwise you'd probably still be doing it!

It is a shame, that the interest is just not there, in funding a reasonable pro tour. I do have a few questions for you, that I hope you can elaborate on. First and foremost, in your opinion, why does a well respected promoter like Mark Griffin for instance, not try to act on some of your ideas, and put them in place? Seems as though a .50 surcharge (per player) would be an easy thing to implement. Maybe not, huh?

Secondly, why do you think Barry Hearn is convinced the U.S. would not be receptive of anything that would benefit pool in general? Why would he think his success in snooker, (and his many other gaming ventures) would not work in this country? Is it due to the shrinking demographic you refer too? Is not the league situation in the U.S., still fairly robust. It certainly appears to me that it is.

And lastly, your last statement.."The DCC is the most successful thing in pro pool, there are lessons there"! Could you please explain what you meant by.."there are lessons there"? Thanks in advance, for your time in responding.

Dick

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I can't speak for Mark or anyone else on why they do or don't do anything. You would have to ask them directly.

My comment about Barry Hearn was not an opinion it was paraphrasing his Hall of Fame induction speech. He talked at length about his efforts in the U.S. and why they have not worked out besides the one event every two years. I did not mean to imply he shouldn't be approached if something real moves forward. He and Luke Riches would be the first people I tried to talk to.

Derby is the only pro heavy event I see thats still strong. Everything else has retreated to pool rooms, cut fields or disappeared. To me Derby is a pro event made possible and funded by amateurs. Which is a good thing for both groups of players. Of course the model is not perfect or we would have one every month but I think you have to look at what they do that has allowed them to continue in a declining market.

Honestly though if I had half a million burning a hole in my pocket I would look to just about everyone in the U.S. pool industry for what not to do. I include myself in that group. At the end of the day no one in it has figured out the answer. We are talking about an entire industry that has probably less than a hundred people who make over $100K a year in it. Not like we are over run with geniuses who know all the answers despite what we all tell each other.

Whoever this new entity is should bring in whoever they want for their council and as soon as they say anything relating to what they are going get out of it they should kick them in the nuts. Same goes for the ones who will say "Let me run it."

Fuji-whopper said:

One very large difference between the US and some European/Asian countries....sponsorship. If you're the best in your country you are treated well, may have a monthly stipend, possibly accommodations taken care of and people will be funneled to you for lessons. In the US you get looked down upon, thought of as a hopeless gambler and are constantly compared to (and losing to) a large pizza.


Neil

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I agree to a certain extent but as far as Euro's are concerned the question that hangs in the air is: If its so good in Europe why do most of the best Euro players live in America?

Mika, Daz, Thorsten, Shaw. Hell if we had a residency requirement for Mosconi Cup we would never lose. I do see what you are saying about the culture of pool in Europe and its organization though and I agree its better than here.

AzHousePro said:

OK everyone, let me start this off by saying that it is meant to be a serious discussion and I will be deleting posts that don’t contribute to the conversation. “It won’t work for these reasons…” is fine. “What a stupid idea, he must be allergic to his money” is not.

With that being said, I have been approached by a party who is interested in the future of pool in the US. He has expressed a willingness to come to the table with up to $500K, if the industry can match his contribution.

I think he is talking about something similar to the WPBA when it was in it’s prime, but I also think he wants to build on that initial concept to involve all aspects of pool in the US today.

I believe he would want to form a committee that would advise him on various aspects of this endeavor. This committee would include knowledgable people from inside and outside of the pool world, and would include player input.

He understands that if this endeavor is going to accomplish anything, it has to be self sustaining and he is interested in different ways that might be possible. Sponsorship, streaming and other methods come to mind right away.

While I realize that there are a LOT of naysayers on this forum, there are also a LOT of people who truly care about the game and I think they would like to see something like this really happen. Let’s talk about what something like this might look like and how it might work.

With all of the talk about the WPA requiring players to become members, I wonder if now might be the right time for something like this to happen.

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I'd be interested in learning more.

Personally, I think it would be easier to put together something long lasting for amateurs than it would be for pros. I'm no super expert on the matter but it seems every effort tried for the pros has usually crashed and burned.

If you want the pro scene to prosper, imo it starts with getting an organization together of people who will look at past mistakes and move forward with the right mindset on how not to repeat those same mistakes.

While Barry Hearn may or may not be interested in investing money into North American pool, he is the wellspring from whence visionary ideas could be found.

Even if Barry were not interested in investing money into North American pool, I feel that he loves pool (and pool players) well enough to share solid advice.

There are so many multi-millionaires and billionaires that work for large corporations in America. Many are being forced to retire at early age and have nothing to do except to follow their heart's desire. Just have to find one of those guys who has a passion for pool or who believes that he has the talent to resurrect this game of kings and queens (also played by the masses).

JoeyA

SJDinPHX said:

Yes, me too Joey, we would all love to see something good happen for pool!..I'm sure Mike thinks this individual is sincere about making such a sizable investment, but I cannot see where, or how, any 'matching funds' can ever materialize!..What 'other' entities could possibly be interested in participating?..Budweiser or Coca-Cola, could do it out of petty cash, but they, like ESPN, seem to have lost any interest in pool, some years ago!..Besides, if a big dollar sponsor were to somehow appear interested, who would they negotiate with?

The billiard industry, and the BCA, are not only grossly underfunded, (and fading fast) they have also not shown a willingness to do anything in the way of actually promoting the game of pool, in recent years!..It appears the only way this individual has a prayer of anyone matching his 500K, is to find someone just like himself, a complete pool degenerate, who loves the game!

That does not seem very likely does it?..There are very few multi-millionaire's, who don't seek a return on their investment, sooner rather than later!..That is why they have those millions of $$$..There are simply too many other attractive business opportunities to profit from, that are light years ahead of pool..The failure of the IPT, (for whatever reason) was a bad break, that high stakes pool, has never really recovered from! :frown:

PS..I agree, Barry Hearn is a business genius..But I do not see him making any real investments in pool! (U.S. or world wide)..Although I've noticed, besides his great success with snooker, he is involved..or has a stake in, just about every other popular game in the world! (Poker, Boxing, Darts, Soccer etc.)

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JoeyA said:

While Barry Hearn may or may not be interested in investing money into North American pool, he is the wellspring from whence visionary ideas could be found.

Even if Barry were not interested in investing money into North American pool, I feel that he loves pool (and pool players) well enough to share solid advice.

There are so many multi-millionaires and billionaires that work for large corporations in America. Many are being forced to retire at early age and have nothing to do except to follow their heart's desire. Just have to find one of those guys who has a passion for pool or who believes that he has the talent to resurrect this game of kings and queens (also played by the masses).

JoeyA

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It's not individual money that can revitalize the sport. It has to be a systemic change both on how pool is perceived by the masses and corporations. Corporate sponsorship is a must and has to begin on a grassroots level. What does Europe and China, for example, have in common that the US does not? That answer is the key to unlocking a future of growth for pool here in America.

One of the things that made the WPBA work so well was the cooperation of the players. The women were willing to sign contracts with the WPBA awarding the organization media rights for competition and also agreed to request waivers to participate in non WPBA events. Waivers were not granted in events that competed directly with WPBA scheduled events. This is hugely important in order to guarantee potential sponsors that their sponsorship dollars will give them the best exposure.

This contract idea has always been a bone of contention for the men in this country.

The board of directors of any player's organization must be a responsible and reasonable group whose first interest is in the growth of the organization and the protection of it's players.

Ditto

JoeyA said:

While Barry Hearn may or may not be interested in investing money into North American pool, he is the wellspring from whence visionary ideas could be found.

Even if Barry were not interested in investing money into North American pool, I feel that he loves pool (and pool players) well enough to share solid advice.

There are so many multi-millionaires and billionaires that work for large corporations in America. Many are being forced to retire at early age and have nothing to do except to follow their heart's desire. Just have to find one of those guys who has a passion for pool or who believes that he has the talent to resurrect this game of kings and queens (also played by the masses).

JoeyA

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NYC cue dude said:

It's not individual money that can revitalize the sport. It has to be a systemic change both on how pool is perceived by the masses and corporations. Corporate sponsorship is a must and has to begin on a grassroots level. What does Europe and China, for example, have in common that the US does not? That answer is the key to unlocking a future of growth for pool here in America.

Click to expand...

FranCrimi said:

One of the things that made the WPBA work so well was the cooperation of the players. The women were willing to sign contracts with the WPBA awarding the organization media rights for competition and also agreed to request waivers to participate in non WPBA events. Waivers were not granted in events that competed directly with WPBA scheduled events. This is hugely important in order to guarantee potential sponsors that their sponsorship dollars will give them the best exposure.

This contract idea has always been a bone of contention for the men in this country.

The board of directors of any player's organization must be a responsible and reasonable group whose first interest is in the growth of the organization and the protection of it's players.

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Ditto to the 3rd Power.

You have to have a new organization, it has to have contracts to protect the players and the public salability of the sport. You have to be able to showcase it to amateurs. Without the complete package you have a lame duck. I have a city that wants it, a place that will have it with room for growth. If it cannot make money and sustain itself its a complete waste of a good man's money.

In my opinion, the only way to make pool self sustainable is similar to a pyramid scheme. I know, that sounds bad but in this case it's not.

As it is now, professionals are playing for each others money... so, there is no money. So, in order to get money into professional pool without waiting around for a sugar daddy is from the bottom.

Now, a lot might hear that and say "why should I be funding these professionals?" And it's a fair question. My thought is, it wouldn't take much from each amateur to build a lot for a small amount of professionals. The AMs have the numbers, so money adds up quickly. But, it cannot be a gift. There needs to be a reason. But more importantly, there needs to be a direct and clear path for an amateur to become a professional. And a clear cut definition of what a professional is. Be it a number, like APA or Fargo, but once you hit that number and stay at that number you're a pro.

The thought is, people would try to eventually grow through the ranks. Presently, there's no benefit for your APA, BCAPL, Fargo ratings to go up. It's actually probably better to keep them as low as you can get away with. With my idea, the higher your rating, the more you're playing for because again the lower levels are funning those above them. Trick would be, even at the bottom level, it needs to be worth it.

How does this happen? That's tricky. The easy answer is the BCAPL and APA join forces to not only improve pool but problem expand it and would in the end equal more money for all. Sadly, that will never happen so a new "league" would need to pop up and do a total take over. This explanation is really just a brief outline of what I've thought of and I'm positive it would work and profit.

Also, I'll add, pool in general doesn't appeal to a younger generation. Whatever happens, the dress code and environment needs to be more appealing. It's so stale and boring as it is. Someone has to shake it up.

Maybe it's time to think outside of the box. Let's look at the highly successful NBA. The Midwest Basketball Conference was a predecessor to the NBA. The teams of the MBC were a hodgepodge of corporate teams and independent barnstormers. The MBC replaced the earlier American Basketball League.

Some of the earlier teams were: The Akron Firestones, The Hyvis Oil, Cooper Busses, Duffy Floral, Rochester Seagrams, Phillips 66'ers, The Goodyear Wingfoots, etc.. There were also some regionally sponsored teams.

Do these company sponsored teams sound like companies that sell basketball related products...NO, No, No. But there may be significant advertising benefits for a team to sponsor a professional traveling team of maybe 5 players or an amateur team to compete locally.

Can you add any thoughts to this?

NYC cue dude said:

It's not individual money that can revitalize the sport. It has to be a systemic change both on how pool is perceived by the masses and corporations. Corporate sponsorship is a must and has to begin on a grassroots level. What does Europe and China, for example, have in common that the US does not? That answer is the key to unlocking a future of growth for pool here in America.

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Respectability

It seems to me that all of these ideas contain the same fundamental flaw. Re-arranging organizations, tournament, etc., are meaningless until pool solves it real problem. No viable fan base. Any sustainable model has to be built on sustainable revenue, which cannot come from a "sugar daddy". If it isn't coming from the fan base then it isn't sustainable.

Personally I think that the tournament model is never going to do it. Maybe something like a professional league, with teams sponsored by localities or manufacturers, would provide enough interest to build a fan base. But as it is, without a REAL structure, with a season that builds to some kind of climax, with rivalries developing, I just do not see how a non-pool playing fan base develops. And that is what pool needs, IMO.

I would add to your very good suggestions that the investors and promoters bring in people from OUTSIDE of the industry who are EXPERIENCED at developing a successful product for television.

JoeyA

BRussell said:

• Focus on the investors and promoters making money, not the players. Only if investors and promoters make money will the players make money. Demanding added money that comes from nowhere so the players have good prize purses is the biggest reason that pro pool has failed over the years, IMO.

• Start out humble and honest, and build for the long-term. Don't start talking about multi-million dollar prize money in the first year. Have modest but honest prize money. If players complain about it not being enough to warrant the cost of the trip and the hotel etc., tell them you understand and they don't have to come and the huge prize money isn't available yet but you hope it grows in the future.

• Make rules for spectators, not players. Whenever pros start talking about taking luck out of the game (e.g., 9 on the break gets spotted), ask whether it makes the game more or less interesting to watch, rather than just makes pros more likely to win. Use a 30-sec. shot clock.

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Ding! A Winner!

KissedOut said:

It seems to me that all of these ideas contain the same fundamental flaw. Re-arranging organizations, tournament, etc., are meaningless until pool solves it real problem. No viable fan base. Any sustainable model has to be built on sustainable revenue, which cannot come from a "sugar daddy". If it isn't coming from the fan base then it isn't sustainable.

Personally I think that the tournament model is never going to do it. Maybe something like a professional league, with teams sponsored by localities or manufacturers, would provide enough interest to build a fan base. But as it is, without a REAL structure, with a season that builds to some kind of climax, with rivalries developing, I just do not see how a non-pool playing fan base develops. And that is what pool needs, IMO.

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A lot of true words in this post. If Pool cannot make it on its own neither can an organization without members.

People want something they will pay for it. Its that simple. If you cannot sell it then there wasn't enough support for it to start with. Grassroots build up = sustainability.

Greenies to you!

Some sensibility!

AzHousePro said:

OK everyone, let me start this off by saying that it is meant to be a serious discussion and I will be deleting posts that don’t contribute to the conversation. “It won’t work for these reasons…” is fine. “What a stupid idea, he must be allergic to his money” is not.

With that being said, I have been approached by a party who is interested in the future of pool in the US. He has expressed a willingness to come to the table with up to $500K, if the industry can match his contribution.

I think he is talking about something similar to the WPBA when it was in it’s prime, but I also think he wants to build on that initial concept to involve all aspects of pool in the US today.

I believe he would want to form a committee that would advise him on various aspects of this endeavor. This committee would include knowledgable people from inside and outside of the pool world, and would include player input.

He understands that if this endeavor is going to accomplish anything, it has to be self sustaining and he is interested in different ways that might be possible. Sponsorship, streaming and other methods come to mind right away.

While I realize that there are a LOT of naysayers on this forum, there are also a LOT of people who truly care about the game and I think they would like to see something like this really happen. Let’s talk about what something like this might look like and how it might work.

With all of the talk about the WPA requiring players to become members, I wonder if now might be the right time for something like this to happen.

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Hi Mike,

Awesome post!
You know that is what every project connected to "Raising the Hustler" is about!

Making "us" self-sustaining so we never have to go hat-in-hand to anyone again,
We will never have to beg again.

As I have said,
without a foundation, it doesn't matter what we do.

Without a foundation from within (Players Union, WPA Sanctioned events)
an interest from outside will wane.

Why?
Nobody cares.
Why doesn't anyone care?
Because no one knows about us.
Why doesn't anyone know about us?
Time.

There are 5 ways to crack the mainstream media-
Books, Film, TV, Music and Live Theater
We just have to shine our lights in their direction.

Without those as supports,
we are just building castles in the sand that disappear with the tide.

I peeled the onion- and got my answers.

Just tell him to study Barry Hearn and Matchroom Sport.

bdorman said:

Just tell him to study Barry Hearn and Matchroom Sport.

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And you'd go broke sooner rather than later.

His equation is only HALF the battle.