should I feel bad?

deebee53

deebee53

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
enzo said:
i believe if you foul, you should inform your opponent. however, if a player simpy sits down in his chair after a foul, and doesn't go out of his way to inform his opponent of his foul, that should not be looked down upon in any way as this is what the rules state you should do
Click to expand...

If you watch your opponent address the ball and its obvious he/she does not know you fouled, then deliberately not saying anything and letting him shoot is the same as denying it ever happened, which you agree is unsportsmanlike.

I sometimes will quietly go to my seat if I foul, but if someone else does not let the shooter know I fouled than I will, before he shoots the ball.

I would want my opponent to call a foul on himself even if I didn't see it so I will continue to conduct myself that way. Whether or not I feel my opponent would call his own does not dictate my behavior. In fact, my calling my fouls removes his ability to use that rationalization to justify his not calling his own fouls.

You have to give to get.
 
S

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
OneIron...All three examples you listed are excellent examples of INTEGRITY. Like I said earlier...either you have it as part of your moral makeup...or you don't. I'm proud to say I do. IF, and/or when the majority of pro players start acting like the examples in this post the sport may begin to attract outside industry sponsorship, and may signal an upturn in pro poolplayers being able to make a decent living (which I wholeheartedly support).

Oh, and btw Enzo...it's still cheating, even if you don't get caught! :rolleyes:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

OneIron said:
How about an analogy to golf, the " successful" sport:

"Imagine standing on the edge of achieving your life's dream. You make a small mistake that will cost you your dream -- but if you don't say anything, you might just get away with it. Would you own up to the mistake, or would you keep quiet and hope for the best?
Brian Davis isn't the best-known name in golf -- or even the hundredth-best-known -- but after Sunday, he ought to move up the list a few notches. Davis was facing Jim Furyk in a playoff at the Verizon Heritage, and was trying to notch his first-ever PGA Tour win.
Davis's approach shot on the first hole of the playoff bounced off the green and nestled in among some weeds. (You can see the gunk he was hitting out of in that shot above.) When Davis tried to punch the ball up onto the green, his club may have grazed a stray weed on his backswing.
So what's the big deal? This: hitting any material around your ball during your backswing constitutes a violation of the rule against moving loose impediments, and is an immediate two-stroke penalty. And in a playoff, that means, in effect, game over.
Okay, you can think that's a silly penalty or whatever, but that's not the point of this story. The point is that Davis actually called the violation on himself.
"It was one of those things I thought I saw movement out of the corner of my eye," Davis said. "And I thought we’d check on TV, and indeed there was movement." Immediately after the shot, Davis called over a rules official, who conferred with television replays and confirmed the movement -- but movement which was only visible on slow-motion. Unbelievable.
As soon as the replays confirmed the violation, Davis conceded the victory to Furyk, who was somewhat stunned -- but, make no mistake, grateful for the win.
"To have the tournament come down that way is definitely not the way I wanted to win," Furyk said. "It’s obviously a tough loss for him and I respect and admire what he did."
Furyk took home* $1.03 million for the win. Davis won't exactly have to beg for change to get a ride home; he won $615,000 for second place. And he may have won much more than that by taking the honorable route.
To be sure, this isn't quite in the same category as J.P. Hayes, the golfer who disqualified himself from qualifying school after learning -- in his hotel room, all alone -- that he had played a nonqualifying ball; or Adam Van Houten, who cost his team an Ohio state title when he admitted signing an incorrect scorecard.* For starters, Davis's shot was on television, and while he could have "not noticed" the movement, the TV cameras still did, and someone might have called him on it later on.
But the bigger deal is this -- the guy gave away a chance at winning his first-ever PGA Tour event because he knew that in golf, honesty is more important than victory. It's a tough lesson to learn, but here's hoping he gets accolades -- and, perhaps, some sponsorship deals -- that more than make up for the victory he surrendered".
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
S

Strike First

Registered
Why in the world would you call a foul on yourself? :rolleyes:

Some serious White Knights in this thread.. I bet 99% of the foul callers in this thread wouldnt do the same in a game of basketball, football, etc..
 
OneIron

OneIron

On the snap, Vinny!
Silver Member
Strike First said:
Why in the world would you call a foul on yourself? :rolleyes:

Some serious White Knights in this thread.. I bet 99% of the foul callers in this thread wouldnt do the same in a game of basketball, football, etc..
Click to expand...

When I played baseball and basketball, we generally had umpires and referees making the calls. I started playing golf as a young adult and it's pretty much expected in golf that you 'fess up to your mistakes. I guess that attitude sort of naturally bled over into my league pool. I was also taught by my dad that honesty is it's own reward and that it really doesn't matter how the opponent sees it or if you get credit for it.

It just somehow seems classier to me...
 
KRJ

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
hmmmm

Enzo, I just don't think you get it. Here are two scenarios.

1. Shooter hits the cb but no ball is made or goes to a rail. Shooter then says nothing, walks back to chair and sits down. Incoming player does not see it and does not get BIH. So that we are clear, that is OK? correct?

2. Shooter misses his shot, but in the process disturbs a few object balls that now benefit him. He says nothing, walks back to his chair and sits down. Incoming player does not see it and never replaces the moved object balls. Is that correct too?

This is the comparison I've been referring to during this thread.
So, in both positions above,you believe it to be acceptable to say nothing to your opponent in either situation?
 
Last edited:
Spimp13

Spimp13

O8 Specialist
Silver Member
OneIron said:
Honesty is it's own reward. Doesn't matter who the opponent is. :cool:
Click to expand...

I completely forgot I posted in this thread lol. I was actually kidding and agree with you even though I dont like to do it with these types of people, I still do. I sometimes lose matches because of it.
 
S

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Tap, tap, tap!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

OneIron said:
When I played baseball and basketball, we generally had umpires and referees making the calls. I started playing golf as a young adult and it's pretty much expected in golf that you 'fess up to your mistakes. I guess that attitude sort of naturally bled over into my league pool. I was also taught by my dad that honesty is it's own reward and that it really doesn't matter how the opponent sees it or if you get credit for it.

It just somehow seems classier to me...
Click to expand...
 
KRJ

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
hmmm

Strike First said:
Why in the world would you call a foul on yourself? :rolleyes:

Some serious White Knights in this thread.. I bet 99% of the foul callers in this thread wouldnt do the same in a game of basketball, football, etc..
Click to expand...

Yep, you are correct.

We have 2 umpires in my Mens Baseball league. And whatever they call is what we live with. Maybe he tagged me, and the ump missed it. Those are the rules. I'm not running full speed into a bag and checking to see if he tagged me or not.

That's what the umps are there for. And sometimes they are wrong and we are on the short end of the stick. We all accept that, and all baseball players know that the mistakes usually even out for both sides. I've walked on ball four that was certainly called a strike all day, but for whatever reason he did not this time. He is the decision maker, and we go by his calls only. There is a difference when there is an actual paid professional referee in charge of the game. Most of our umpires have 20 years or more experience umpiring baseball.

If there were not umpires, like in a pick up game, I would call myself out. I mean, what are we really playing for anyways. To have a fun and sociable day playing a game we love.....
 
krupa

krupa

The Dream Operator
Silver Member
Not calling my own foul when the other guy didn't see it feels like cheating to me and there's no point in playing if I'm just going to cheat... I'll just stay home and tell people how awesome I am. (By the way, do you know how awesome I am!?)

In my opinion, you can cheat (i.e., gain an unfair advantage) without violating the written rules of the game. Not calling a foul falls under this category.

At the same time, I don't expect my opponent to reply in kind so I tend to watch the game pretty closely.

To respond to the OP, I'd say that since you're thinking about it to the point that you invite public opinion, you already know the answer.
 
ShootingArts

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
this thread has came around again

I think it's on roughly a six month schedule, it comes up once every six months. There was a time when I called fouls on myself regardless of cost. After gambling for a few years I settled on a "when in Rome" policy. I would play by any rules the other person played by or could make up, but we both played by the same rules.

One major issue with having the opponent call the fouls, you put him in the position of being the official. When the other person is shooting instead of keeping my butt in the chair I will go wherever I need to be to best see the shot. I'll also sometimes do all I can to block the other person's view of my shots and occasionally jump up or jerk my head over in their direction after a perfectly legal shot. Many opponents have called a foul when I did that and my immediate reaction is to challenge them to tell me what foul I committed. Since there wasn't a foul this leads to major confusion.

Pool is much simpler and more pleasant as a gentleman's or lady's game. It can be more fun as a less gentlemanly pursuit sometimes. I have to admit it is fun to keep somebody so on edge watching me that they forget the object is to make balls in the pockets! :D :D :D

Hu
 
Cdryden

Cdryden

Pool Addict
Silver Member
Ok I have a little different reason for calling it. I want to know I beat you, fair and square no excuses. If I didn't call it on myself and i ended up winning I would feel like I cheated myself out of a honest victory.

That said, I don't blame you one bit for not calling it on yourself, you were within the rule pure and simple. But whether or not you should feel bad is something you need to decide for yourself and it sounds like you already did.
 
Maniac

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
Neil said:
Last night I was in a money game. No one watching except my opponent (good old summer in the pool room, basically empty on a Fri. nite!) I accidentally touched the cb without moving it during my warmup stroke. I told my opponent I fouled, and gave him BIH. It cost me that set.
Click to expand...

Okay, in the above quoted scenario, Neil said he touched the cueball without moving it. If this happens in any kind of pool game ANYWHERE, if the cueball didn't move, how can you expect an opponent sitting at a table, or in a chair, or even a whole TEAM of opponents sitting at a table, to see that a foul was commited? Isn't it still a foul? How can an opponent call something he absolutely had no way of seeing without his/her head being positioned directly above the ball? Hell, a referee wouldn't have seen it. So this is obviously a foul that a player MUST call on himself/herself, correct? So why would this be any different than calling ANY type of foul on yourself whether the opponent was watching or not? A foul is a foul. There are NOT different degrees of fouls as far as I know. I don't care who you are, you DO NOT watch the table EVERY SINGLE SECOND of any pool match you are in. I would almost stake my life on that statement. At some point in time, you are going to crane your neck and check out something somewhere else in the room or somebody will most certainly block your view before the match is over.

I stand by my statement in my first post that I will always call a known foul on myself. Winning or losing is not what matters to me. I play for the love of the game and the game is easier to love when you are playing people with integrity!!! Just my $.02.

To the OP: I told you this would be about a 50/50 ratio. Seen threads like this before, like Hu said.

Maniac
 
Last edited:
inside_english

inside_english

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
torgy2 said:
I was playing in my scotch doubles summer league last night and my

partner had left me hooked to where i had to kick at one of our balls but

clearly hit the other teams ball first and fouled but i didnt say any thing

and just went and sat in my chair and waited for the other team to shoot.

I guess they were to busy talking to eachother and they didnt notice the

foul or even care to ask if it was a foul and they just shot. Should I have

said something since they werent paying attention or did what i did and

just not say anything?

What would you have done?

Thanks
Click to expand...
A true test of character is how you behave when no one is watching.

I think you know the answer.

Cheating is cheating, no matter how you slice it, print it, or wear it on a t-shirt.
 
ShootingArts

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
all rules require pool to be "a gentleman's game" at some point

Maniac said:
Okay, in the above quoted scenario, Neil said he touched the cueball without moving it. If this happens in any kind of pool game ANYWHERE, if the cueball didn't move, how can you expect an opponent sitting at a table, or in a chair, or even a whole TEAM of opponents sitting at a table, to see that a foul was commited? Isn't it still a foul? How can an opponent call something he absolutely had no way of seeing without his/her head being positioned directly above the ball? Hell, a referee wouldn't have seen it. So this is obviously a foul that a player MUST call on himself/herself, correct? So why would this be any different than calling ANY type of foul on yourself whether the opponent was watching or not? A foul is a foul. There are NOT different degrees of fouls as far as I know. I don't care who you are, you DO NOT watch the table EVERY SINGLE SECOND of any pool match you are in. I would almost stake my life on that statement. At some point in time, you are going to crane your neck and check out something somewhere else in the room or somebody will most certainly block your view before the match is over.

I stand by my statement in my first post that I will always call a known foul on myself. Winning or losing is not what matters to me. I play for the love of the game and the game is easier to love when you are playing people with integrity!!! Just my $.02.

To the OP: I told you this would be about a 50/50 ratio. Seen threads like this before, like Hu said.

Maniac
Click to expand...


I have never seen a set of rules that didn't expect players to act like gentlemen at some point. Most rules say with no official present disputed calls go to the shooter as one example. What happens when somebody blatantly fouls, you see it from your chair, and they deny it?

These days I rarely play with anyone that doesn't understand pool should be a gentleman's game. Gambling I usually did whatever I figured would make them the maddest when they denied flagrant fouls. I played a tournament a few years back where one of my opponents cheated on the coin flip. Just a given after this that I was going to make his life hell with the whole match being psychological warfare.

Hu
 
R

Roadie

Banned
There is always a legitimate reason why the opponent might not see a foul committed. The person who is most able to know that a foul was committed is the player at the table. If a foul is committed then it is a rule violation which carries a penalty. Doing anything to avoid taking that penalty is cheating. It is no different than committing a foul on purpose in full knowledge that the opponent would not see it. A foul is a foul no matter if done by accident or on purpose. Not reporting it is or should be a violation of the rules that should carry an extra penalty such as a two game loss. It should fall under unsportsmanlike conduct.

Additionally one has to ask of themselves how they would want it to be if they were the incoming player? If for example you were awaiting your turn and you took a sip of water or a fly landed on your nose and at that precise moment a foul was committed wouldn't you want your opponent to inform you of it rather than to deprive you of the reward for their offense?

Integrity at the table is what one does when no one else can see it. Famously George Breedlove called a foul on himself in the finals of an IPT qualifier when facing Alex Pagulayan. Had Breedlove not done this then it's likely he would have won the qualifier and the tour card. No one but George saw the foul. The entry fee for the qualifier was $2000. The value of the tour card was potentially around one million dollars. If Mr. Breedlove can forfeit this in order to retain his integrity can we do any less?
 
R

Roadie

Banned
Neil said:
Your statement is very true. However, it is misplaced. Not telling your opponent you fouled (not referring to denying a foul took place) is not cheating, and is not a character flaw. No more than not telling them they are shooting the wrong ball, or not telling them they should play the safe instead of going for the shot, or not telling them they should use draw instead of follow on a given shot.

What many of you are missing, is that MOST rules state that it is the opponent responsibility to call fouls, not the shooter. So, if you guys want to get technical about cheating, well, then you are not abiding by the rules, hence cheating, by telling him. You can't have it both ways just to try and feel righteous about yourself.

Quit making up your own rules, and saying others are cheating because they actually follow the rules.;)
Click to expand...

Sir there is a large difference in informing your opponent that you committed a foul and informing them that they are about to commit one.

Would you point to the rules which state that the opponent must act as the referee in a match without a referee? I just browsed the WPA rules and cannot find such a stipulation in regards to fouls. Fouls are defined but nothing is addressed about who should notify whom when one is committed.

In fact it is somewhat of a conflict of interest to have the opponent responsible for calling fouls. That seems counter-intuitive as it invites a situation where the non-shooting player can claim that a foul was committed when no foul was committed.

The fact is that when a foul is committed and the player at the table knows that he has in fact committed it then at that moment the situation is that the in coming player is owed ball in hand. That is the the reality of the situation. Withholding that information allows the outgoing player to commit an error and not be penalized. That is a cheating way of playing the game. What is the difference of committing a foul on purpose with no intention to inform the opponent and committing a foul by accident and not informing the opponent?

Any sufficiently advanced player knows when they can easily manipulate the balls without anyone noticing. A good player knows that the difference between an easily runnable table and a difficult one can be a few centimeters difference in ball position.

So the default should be that the outgoing player acknowledges and calls fouls on himself to maintain the integrity of the game because the realistic outcome of not doing so is truly indistinguishable from when a player deliberately commits a foul that they know they will get away with.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top