Why CTE is so controversial

Patrick Johnson said:

You seem like an intelligent guy - you don't see the credibility issue here?

Something about "the same 30 inside perception" - or the way you use it (the "getting there" part) - must change in order for your statement to make simple sense.

pj
chgo

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How many YEARS have you been trying to get "them" to understand that very simple fact?

I've been trying for about 5 maybe 6 of OFF & On Years.

BC21 said:

I was making the point that pro players aren't pros because they've learned one particular aiming system or another. At some point in their pursuit to become better players, they were hitting a thousand or more balls per day, including Stan.

Probably true, at one time. But they are no longer "in search" of because they found the keys for them that work. But some still search. Which is why a good number of them are going to see Stan for additional improvement.

I'd love to be able to carry a pool table around with me in my pocket, but all I have is this phone. I would much rather spend my down time throughout the day playing pool instead of reading your antagonizing posts

You mean reading ENGLISH"S antagonizing and idiotic posts. THEY are really time consuming. And YOU keep posting back to the scourge of the forum as well as thrown in your own independent posts.

, where you constantly insist that every comment that doesn't praise CTE is somehow a comment "knocking" it.

Nope! I know the difference and I know where you're coming from.

This post took all of nearly 1min to get out.

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And another minute to read mine. Right there is 2 minutes out of your day.

Do you work? If so, you're robbing them of your time and their money by doing this BS day in and day out.

bc21 said:

i was making the point that pro players aren't pros because they've learned one particular aiming system or another. At some point in their pursuit to become better players, they were hitting a thousand or more balls per day, including stan.

I'd love to be able to carry a pool table around with me in my pocket, but all i have is this phone. I would much rather spend my down time throughout the day playing pool instead of reading your antagonizing posts, where you constantly insist that every comment that doesn't praise cte is somehow a comment "knocking" it.

This post took all of nearly 1min to get out.

Click to expand...

Tap! Tap! Tap!

ENGLISH! said:

How many YEARS have you been trying to get "them" to understand that very simple fact?

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It's not just for them - balancing what's presented here with a rational perspective is for whoever's reading and interested.

Maybe when Stan starts his own forum and the CTE Defense League moves there it won't be necessary any more.

pj <- yeah, right
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

You seem like an intelligent guy - you don't see the credibility issue here?

Something about "the same 30 inside perception" - or the way you use it (the "getting there" part) - must change in order for your statement to make simple sense.

pj
chgo

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Serious question. You really don't get that for each different OB location the CTEL goes through a different edge on the OB?

Patrick Johnson said:

It's not just for them - balancing what's presented here with a rational perspective is for whoever's reading and interested.

Maybe when Stan starts his own forum and the CTE Defense League moves there it won't be necessary any more.

pj <- yeah, right
chgo

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Hey, if that's what you think GFY.

I don't think I said his "own forum" If so, I meant Q&A on his website. He can always be reached on FB but I know you don't have access and never will.

(good for you.)

cookie man said:

Serious question. You really don't get that for each different OB location the CTEL goes through a different edge on the OB?

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You really don't get that's impossible?

If you could nail your cue to the top of the CB and pivot it until it touches the OB's side, how many points on the OB's equator do you think you'd be able to touch that way?

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

You really don't get that's impossible?

If you could nail your cue to the top of the CB and pivot it until it touches the OB's side, how many points on the OB's equator do you think you'd be able to touch that way?

pj
chgo

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One. And every time you move the OB a different one. Move it again and guess what, a different one.
Actually two i'm sorry. One on each side

ENGLISH! said:

Monty,

"WHAT" is "IT" that (supposedly) objectively "dictates" TO the shooter...

the different physical positions depending on where the balls are on the table...

when there IS the exact SAME distance between the CB & OB?

I ask because science "dictates" that "THAT" is impossible.

Best Wishes.

Click to expand...

Second try at this........to show that it IS possible to get 2 different cut angles using the same perception/pivot, even when the CB/OB are the exact same distance from each other......with both eyes open.

Note: none of the diagrams are to exact scale.

I'm extremely right eye dominant. So when I try to put my tip on center CB, I'm actually slightly to the left. To me it looks like I'm on CCB, but I'm not. Because of my severe right eye dominance, I'm unknowingly looking at the CB at a slight angle. This was first pointed out to me by Dave Bollman......and then again a few years later by Stan Shuffett. Subsequent video analysis showed that my stroke swoops slightly to the right on my final forward stroke to compensate for this.....another thing I wasn't aware of doing. I'm positive that this was the reason I never won a US Open, lol JK :grin:.

Anyway, one day I was watching a Mike Page youtube video (he has some pretty good ones) where he says the best way to line up a near 90 degree cut is by sighting down the 2 contact points (edge to edge in this case). So I go to my table 15 feet away and set up a near 90 degree cut to the left. I address the shot and, knowing I'm right eye dominant, I close my left eye to ensure I'm right on the edge-to-edge line. To my surprise it didn't look right at all. I was confused. So with both eyes open I then closed my right eye and, surprised even more, I found I was then looking right down the edge-to-edge line.....with my left eye.

So another thing that I didn't know about my game was, that even though I'm very right eye dominant, my brain can switch to the other eye when more beneficial. Many players do this without even knowing it, again with both eyes open. From one extreme to the other (90 degree cut to left - 90 degree cut to the right) the eyes can switch dominance......and can dial left/right all across that spectrum depending on the shot angle. The trick is to know how to use this to one's advantage - but that's another story (3rd eye trainer). ......or ? Perfect Aim.

Having said all that, now to the main point of this post.



Diagram #1 shows 3 shots - a straight-in (red ball), a near 90 degree cut to the right( blue ball), and a near 90 degree cut to the left (orange ball). The CB here is yellow. As you can see the player is using the right eye exclusively for the cut to the right and using the left eye exclusively for the cut to the left (when using one eye 80-100% for sighting it's just like having the other eye closed). For players that do this, all the shots in between these two extremes, the eyes will dial back and forth with a 50/50 for the straight-in. And when they get out to 75 - 100% one eye or the other, they start seeing the center of the CB at an angle relative to the shot line (shot line being the center of the CB to the center of the ghost ball). This is a problem, because if wanting to use a center CB hit, they're actually slightly off one way or the other which can cause squirt resulting in a thick hit and unwanted spin..........again, that's another story.



Another way of illustrating this is in diagram #2. Here are another 3 shots. The middle ball is a dead bank across the corner, the left ball is a cut to the left side pocket, and the right ball is a cut to the right corner. The thing on all 3 of these shots is that they all share the exact same CB AND ghost ball positions. C1 is the CP-to-CP position for the cut to the left, C2 is the CP-to-CP position for the bank, and C3 is the CP-to-CP position for the cut to the right. See possible eye dominance percentages noted for each shot. Note here, with the exact same head position and CB/ghost ball positions, the player could see different center CBs (and perhaps a different edge, too) on all 3 shots.



Now my last diagram (promise), #3. This shows another 3 shots. The shot on the left is the beginning of the 15 perceptions with an inside pivot. The shot on the right is the end of the 15 perceptions with an inside pivot. The middle shot is a tweener between the extremes of the 15 degree w/inside pivots.The orange area represents the ghost ball. Lets say for argument sake that all 3 shots are the exact same distance from each other. Keeping in mind all of the discussions about diagrams #1 and #2 above, as each shot becomes more acute to the left, the player's (some players) left eye will become more in charge or more involved or more dominant (without them even knowing it, just based on a different position on the 2X1 surface of the pool table) and they'll see a different center CB for all three shots (and perhaps a different edge, too).....which could give them a different cut angle even when they are using the same 15 inside for all 3 shots.

Does anyone get what I'm talking about here?

Anyway, like I said before in the other thread, this has not much of anything to do with CTE....and never discussed on any DVDs. It's just ONE way of showing that, even with exact same distances and exact same perception/pivot, you can get different results in terms of cut angle. There are other ways ...... stay tuned, you won't want to miss it.


DTL
too much time on my hands

mohrt said:

That will be funny, as there would only be 4-5 guys left here to pat each others backs in self proclamation of pool aiming mastery.

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The only reason it seems like that is because the CTE "controversy" has crowded out every other topic here. I predict that with it gone we'd see much more constructive conversation about other methods.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

It's not just for them - balancing what's presented here with a rational perspective is for whoever's reading and interested.

Maybe when Stan starts his own forum and the CTE Defense League moves there it won't be necessary any more.

pj <- yeah, right
chgo

Click to expand...

I hear you & agree.

It is NOT about that handful. It is about anyone who comes here... now or in the future.

They deserve to be able to get Truthful Information or at least information that is not scientifically known to be inaccurate.

That said, there are also times when techniques of how to do is as of as much interest as the scientific facts, if not more so... at least for some, if not most.

Patrick Johnson said:

The only reason it seems like that is because the CTE "controversy" has crowded out every other topic here. I predict that with it gone we'd see much more constructive conversation about other methods.

pj
chgo

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Please start a thread about another method. One of two things will happen.
It won't make it off the first page or
A naysayer will mention CTE to get the controversy started with that method.
When is the last time someone started a thread about a particular aiming method without directly comparing it to CTE.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


exactly what cookie and mohrt said!!

DTL said:

Second try at this........to show that it IS possible to get 2 different cut angles using the same perception/pivot, even when the CB/OB are the exact same distance from each other......with both eyes open.

Note: none of the diagrams are to exact scale.

I'm extremely right eye dominant. So when I try to put my tip on center CB, I'm actually slightly to the left. To me it looks like I'm on CCB, but I'm not. Because of my severe right eye dominance, I'm unknowingly looking at the CB at a slight angle. This was first pointed out to me by Dave Bollman......and then again a few years later by Stan Shuffett. Subsequent video analysis showed that my stroke swoops slightly to the right on my final forward stroke to compensate for this.....another thing I wasn't aware of doing. I'm positive that this was the reason I never won a US Open, lol JK :grin:.

Anyway, one day I was watching a Mike Page youtube video (he has some pretty good ones) where he says the best way to line up a near 90 degree cut is by sighting down the 2 contact points (edge to edge in this case). So I go to my table 15 feet away and set up a near 90 degree cut to the left. I address the shot and, knowing I'm right eye dominant, I close my left eye to ensure I'm right on the edge-to-edge line. To my surprise it didn't look right at all. I was confused. So with both eyes open I then closed my right eye and, surprised even more, I found I was then looking right down the edge-to-edge line.....with my left eye.

So another thing that I didn't know about my game was, that even though I'm very right eye dominant, my brain can switch to the other eye when more beneficial. Many players do this without even knowing it, again with both eyes open. From one extreme to the other (90 degree cut to left - 90 degree cut to the right) the eyes can switch dominance......and can dial left/right all across that spectrum depending on the shot angle. The trick is to know how to use this to one's advantage - but that's another story (3rd eye trainer). ......or ? Perfect Aim

Having said all that, now to the main point of this post.

View attachment 523307

Diagram #1 shows 3 shots - a straight-in (red ball), a near 90 degree cut to the right( blue ball), and a near 90 degree cut to the left (orange ball). The CB here is yellow. As you can see the player is using the right eye exclusively for the cut to the right and using the left eye exclusively for the cut to the left (when using one eye 90-100% for sighting it's just like having the other eye closed). For players that do this, all the shots in between these two extremes, the eyes will dial back and forth with a 50/50 for the straight-in. And when they get out to 75 - 100% one eye or the other, they start seeing the center of the CB at an angle relative to the shot line (shot line being the center of the CB to the center of the ghost ball). This is a problem because if wanting to use a center CB hit they're actually slightly off one way or the other which can cause unwanted spin and deflection resulting in a thick hit......again, that's another story.

View attachment 523308

Another way of illustrating this is in diagram #2. Here are another 3 shots. The middle ball is a dead bank across the corner, the left ball is a cut to the left side pocket, and the right ball is a cut to the right corner. The thing on all 3 of these shots is that they all share the exact same CB AND ghost ball positions. C1 is the CP-to-CP position for the cut to the left, C2 is the CP-to-CP position for the bank, and C3 is the CP-to-CP position for the cut to the right. See possible eye dominance noted for each shot. Note here, with the exact same head position and CB/ghost ball positions, the player would see different center CBs (and perhaps a different edge, too) on all 3 shots.

View attachment 523309

Now my last diagram (promise), #3. This shows another 3 shots. Left shot angle is the beginning of the 15 perceptions with an inside pivot. The right shot angle is the end of the 15 perceptions with an inside pivot. The middle shot is a tweener between the extremes of the 15 insides.The orange area is the ghost ball. Lets say for argument sake that all 3 shots are the exact same distance from each other. Keeping in mind all of the discussions about diagrams #1 and #2 above, as each shot becomes more acute to the left, the player (some players) left eye will become more in charge or more involved or more dominant (without them even knowing it, just based on the different position on the 2X1 surface of the pool table) and they'll see a different center CB for all three shots (and perhaps a different edge, too).....which could give them a different cut angle even when they are using the same 15 inside for all 3 shots.

Does anyone get what I'm talking about here?

Anyway, like I said before in the other thread, this has not much of anything to do with CTE....and never discussed on any DVDs. It's just ONE way of showing that, even with exact same distances and exact same perception/pivot, you can get different results in terms of cut angle. There are other ways ...... stay tuned, you won't want to miss it.


DTL
too much time on my hands

Click to expand...

Okay, Duke.

May I call you Duke, since you called me a Homosexual & a Child Molester just because of CTE(or was it because of Stan Shuffett)...
& you NEVER apologized.

Thanks for taking the time & making the effort instead of just running off.

There is a lot there, but you've negated the original premise which I did not articulate in my post.

Naturally, if the POINT of vision is "moved"... then doing such is going to result in a different view...

However... the equal & simultaneous (objective) view of the 2 lines that fixed the CB has then been LOST & one is then in the realm of that dreaded "S" word.

What happened to "the balls present themselves differently depending on where they are on the table"?

What you speak of is subjective vision. It is similar to what Lou has been saying for years but in the vertical direction.

It is also nothing new to be discovered... as Gene Albreight has known about it & has been teaching about it for at least One Decade if not more.

Gene also knows about how we see differently regarding pool when playing regularly vs after a lay off.

I hope I do not see some plagiarism coming. Gene could use the money.

My vison is much like yours but EVERYONE'S vision is NOT objectively like that. I can NOT control which eye is 'seeing' unless I close one eye.

However, my subconscious does make a switch as to what eye is 'seeing' the shot from the down position which should be my right eye as that is my dominant eye for looking 'straight' out, but when looking from on top in the standing tall position it is my left eye that is 'seeing' the shot.

I am shocked that I play as relatively well as I do with so much going on. The Subconscious mind is the most powerful part of our being except for our will.

Thanks again for your effort. You just started out by wiping out the initial premise that should have been understood. It is the defined points & the requirement to see both of the 2 lines equally & simultaneously that restricts the view POINT. Hence from THAT same View "POINT"... ONLY ONE "perception" can be seen.

Just to make a point... how about we use a sideways periscope to look through... or... we start bending light so that we can see around things? Looking through the periscope losses the Fixed CB. NOW if there was enough MASS to bend light... then perhaps we could see different points. One when the light traveled straight & one when the light was bent into a curve of some kind, but I do not think even then. We would see the same point but just have to look in a different direction to see it. Now don't get all excited. It takes an EXTREME amount of mass to bend light... like say a very heavy planet.

ENGLISH! said:

I think you missed Lou's point, but I will let him explain if he is so inclined.

Also, I do see his post as being specific to CTE. There are other methods that requiring sighting certain things.

Click to expand...

What I'm saying is that everyone can see a half ball hit but everyone will see it differently.

And the trick from there is just creating a consistent methodology around that perception. I've said for a long time that every pool player constructs their own reality about pool. And my reality, whether it's a half ball hit, or going off the "edge" of a ball for a safety, or hitting a stop shot will be different than the next guy's because we see things from different perspectives and process things differently.

Lou Figueroa

ENGLISH! said:

Okay, Duke.

May I call you Duke, since you called me a Homosexual & a Child Molester just because of CTE(or was it because of Stan Shuffett)...
& you NEVER apologized.

Thanks for taking the time & making the effort instead of just running off.

There is a lot there, but you've negated the original premise which I did not articulate in my post.

Naturally, if the POINT of vision is "moved"... then doing such is going to result in a different view...

However... the equal & simultaneous (objective) view of the 2 lines that fixed the CB has then been LOST & one is then in the realm of that dreaded "S" word.

What happened to "the balls present themselves differently depending on where they are on the table"?

What you speak of is subjective vision. It is similar to what Lou has been saying for years but in the vertical direction.

It is also nothing new to be discovered... as Gene Albreight has known about it & has been teaching about it for at least One Decade if not more.

Gene also knows about how we see differently regarding pool when playing regularly vs after a lay off.

I hope I do not see some plagiarism coming. Gene could use the money.

My vison is much like yours but EVERYONE'S vision is NOT objectively like that. I can NOT control which eye is 'seeing' unless I close one eye.

However, my subconscious does make a switch as to what eye is 'seeing' the shot from the down position which should be my right eye as that is my dominant eye for looking 'straight' out, but when looking from on top in the standing tall position it is my left eye that is 'seeing' the shot.

I am shocked that I play as relatively well as I do with so much going on. The Subconscious mind is the most powerful part of our being except for our will.

Thanks again for your effort. You just started out by wiping out the initial premise that should have been understood. It is the defined points & the requirement to see both of the 2 lines equally & simultaneously that restricts the view POINT. Hence from THAT same View "POINT"... ONLY ONE "perception" can be seen.

Just to make a point... how about we use a sideways periscope to look through... or... we start bending light so that we can see around things? Looking through the periscope losses the Fixed CB. NOW if there was enough MASS to bend light... then perhaps we could see different points. One when the light traveled straight & one when the light was bent into a curve of some kind. but I do not thing even then. We would see the same point bot just have to look in a different direction to see it. Now don't get all excited. It takes an EXTREME amount of mass to bend light... like say a very heavy planet.

Click to expand...

You didn't have to throw in that last paragraph......we all know you're a highly intelligent human being .

So after reading my last post, would you agree it IS possible to get a different outcome using the same perception/pivot on two slightly different shots that are exactly the same distance apart?


DTL
e=mc2

DTL said:

You didn't have to throw in that last paragraph......we all know you're a highly intelligent human being .

So after reading my last post, would you agree it IS possible to get a different outcome using the same perception/pivot on two slightly different shots that are exactly the same distance apart?


DTL
e=mc2

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You're going to get sucked into a black hole and never escape with him and the others if you play their game.

You're in for a chapter in a novel if he does answer which really won't be an answer. Just a rambling, convoluted, pile of ca-ca.

Here are the ones to avoid. Btw, they're all here present and accounted for today.

#1 on the list is LOU FIGUEROA. He was the primary attacker 20 years ago and still holds a vendetta for it and is the primary attacker today as evidenced in his latest posts. It never stops.

#2 is DAN White.

#3 is BC21, Brian.

#4 JoeyInCali

If #5 PAT JOHNSON.

#6 ENGLISH! Nobody on the planet worse. Around the clock 24/7 posting on all the forums but Aiming is the worst.