John Schmidt's 626

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Since the first day of the claim for js626, May 27, 2019, There has never been any claim made that the scrutiny was applied to the original unedited video. It took a month of editing time for the edited video to be presented to the two officials of the BCA-pool for certification. This in and of itself is a major no-no. ...

Billiards Digest, August 2019 issue, page 48:

  • "In early June, Desmond flew to the BCA office in Colorado with the unedited videotape. BCA officials Rob Johnson and Shane Tyree watched the entire four-hour plus video ..."

[Doug Desmond was the racker for the run.]
 

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
I really hope that this video is not the only safeguard Schmidt has to depend upon in avoiding "dying broke behind a Walgreens". It is safe to say Schmidt is better off being proficient in 14:1 than, say, badminton, but I will not venture a guess as to how much he will need in addition in order to obtain the proverbial cup of coffee. What is the all-time, best selling, pool video? How much did it gross? How much did the players realize? How will 4+ hours of straight pool compare? Does anyone believe that this video has any chance of being the "mortgage-lifter" for which Schmidt hopes?

So if there is no valid expectation of serious money, what is all this fuss about?
 
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Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
lol, marketing strategy, conspiracy theory?!

No, there’s none of that. And so I repeat: Occam's Razor basically says *the simplest* of competing theories should be preferred to the more complex.

Maybe there’s just no legitimate run to show.

Lou Figueroa

Theory 1-----John is trying to figure out how best to monetize this achievement, which in his mind means finding some way to prevent it from being copied and shared for free (thereby drastically reducing the number of people who would have to purchase it), and he hasn't figured out (in his own mind anyway) the best way to get maximum money out of this. He has apparently said as much that this is his big concern that it will end up being shared around for free, and these days it is a pretty legitimate concern and once the video is out there, if that were to happen, there is no way to undo it, you have forever lost your opportunity to approach it a different way. I suspect John has just been looking for someone to buy the rights outright so that he is guaranteed whatever sum was agreed upon and all the risk goes to somebody else and as of yet just hasn't found a buyer for the price he wants or thinks it is worth. This is the same thing people do with nice cues, nice paintings, cars, whatever. If you aren't desperate you hold out for a buyer at what you think is a fair price and sometimes that can take several years, especially for things like this.

Theory 2-----There is this big well orchestrated conspiracy among quite a number of respected honest people to fake a relatively obscure record. That nasty conspiracy of fakery involves Bob Jewett, several BCA officials (Rob Johnson and Shane Tyree), Doug Desmond (the racker for the whole run), a number of in person witnesses, a number of other viewers of the video of the entire run, and others. All of them are liars and cheats and frauds, as proven by their lying and cheating and fraud in this big well orchestrated conspiracy they are carrying out. And they are being liars and cheats and frauds even though there doesn't appear to be any real motivation for any of them to lie, cheat, or commit fraud about this that anybody can see but they are putting their reputations on the line anyway for the sh!ts and giggles or because they are just the lying, cheating, fraudulent kind of people deep down inside and just hid it so well all their lives that we never got to see it until now and it just so happened to come out in all of them at the same time even though they all have nothing to gain and lots to lose.

So either John is trying to maximize the money he can make from this, even if he is misguided about the best way to do that, or Bob Jewett and quite a number of other respected people are lying and helping to commit this conspiracy of fraud and putting their reputations on the line for the sh!ts and giggles when they have lots to lose and nothing to gain. It is extremely clear which scenario is simpler, and more likely, and best fits Occam's razor, and it isn't the one you are suggesting.

That aside, I think you need more than "I haven't personally seen the video therefore it couldn't have happened" before you literally call the likes of Bob Jewett (not to mention all the others) a liar, cheat, and fraud, yet that is precisely what you are doing, literally.

You are an intelligent guy and are almost always on the right side of things but I think your misguided bias is getting the best of you on this one, that bias being (as per your numerous and past vehement posts) that you refuse to believe that this record could ever be broken and as great as he was you had Mosconi as some kind of inhuman god who you could never in your wildest imagination ever conceive that he could possibly ever be surpassed by anybody ever. That is what is really behind your inability to be reasonable here IMO, and even if you can't change those biases and how you feel about things surely you can see that calling someone as respected as Bob Jewett literally a liar and fraud is a more than unreasonable given all the circumstances until and unless additional and sufficient evidence were to come in that would warrant those accusations but as of now they aren't even close to warranted.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
It is safe to say Schmidt is better off being proficient in 14:1 than, say, badminton, but I will not venture a guess as to how much he will need in addition in order to obtain the proverbial cup of coffee.

Don't be so sure...
attachment.php


It's pretty amazing what actual athletes playing actual sports can earn. Even if that sport is obscure in Western hemisphere.
 
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The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
This is pool, not the MPAA. There are like 5 people who know how to rip it and another 5 who would know how to download and watch it... but technically, that would be half of the 20 people who actually give a shit enough anymore to actually buy it and watch the whole thing.

This has been my take on the whole money making aspect of this video....lol

I will admit. If there was a highlight reel of the more interesting shots/escapes from bad situations, ...and it was already available through my amazon/prime membership or netflix, I'd probably watch it.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
about me i come from the 1960s
so when i saw in the 1950s
all these witness signatures
for mosconi’s run of 526
i was immediately suspicious

why did he need to prove it

methinks thou doest
protest too much
-to paraphrase shakespeare


I think he got the signatures because he knew it was a record and getting people to sign an affidavit was about all you could do back them to provide proof.

Also keep in mind that he was just in town to do an exhibition, not make a record attempt. It was the crowd that urged him on and to please them he kept going.

Lou Figueroa
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
And, oh, wait a minute. Forget who saw. Let's talk about a matter of importance -- What type of table was Mosconi playing on? 8, 9, 10 ft.? And dare I inquire as to the widths and angles of the pockets? As in all things, size does matter.

And for that matter, what type of table was this new run on?


That has all been discussed here many, many times before.

Lou Figueroa
 

xXGEARXx

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Occam's Razor basically says the simplest of competing theories should be preferred to the more complex.

So let me ask you: what is the simplest explanation for unedited video of the run not having been released by now?

Lou Figueroa

That is not where I am going at all. Several people have viewed it. The point is, what do they all gain from a lie? Nothing. This has been around now for quite some time and at this point, it just doesn't make sense. If there is not much to gain from living a lie, then the simplest expplanation is that it's true. I do not think someone like Bob Jewett is willing to risk his reputation on BS. Do you?

I'll make this even easier for you. Why not reach out to John and ask him yourself? What is stopping you from presenting the question to him?

I undersrtand where you are coming from. I really do. I have no idea why it wouldn't be released on YouTube or some other platform. I am sure it would get a lot of views. Not everyone agrees, and I don't care that they don't. That is my opinion. Even if you just click on it and start the video, then skim through it - it is still a view.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Theory 1-----John is trying to figure out how best to monetize this achievement, which in his mind means finding some way to prevent it from being copied and shared for free (thereby drastically reducing the number of people who would have to purchase it), and he hasn't figured out (in his own mind anyway) the best way to get maximum money out of this. He has apparently said as much that this is his big concern that it will end up being shared around for free, and these days it is a pretty legitimate concern and once the video is out there, if that were to happen, there is no way to undo it, you have forever lost your opportunity to approach it a different way. I suspect John has just been looking for someone to buy the rights outright so that he is guaranteed whatever sum was agreed upon and all the risk goes to somebody else and as of yet just hasn't found a buyer for the price he wants or thinks it is worth. This is the same thing people do with nice cues, nice paintings, cars, whatever. If you aren't desperate you hold out for a buyer at what you think is a fair price and sometimes that can take several years, especially for things like this.

Theory 2-----There is this big well orchestrated conspiracy among quite a number of respected honest people to fake a relatively obscure record. That nasty conspiracy of fakery involves Bob Jewett, several BCA officials (Rob Johnson and Shane Tyree), Doug Desmond (the racker for the whole run), a number of in person witnesses, a number of other viewers of the video of the entire run, and others. All of them are liars and cheats and frauds, as proven by their lying and cheating and fraud in this big well orchestrated conspiracy they are carrying out. And they are being liars and cheats and frauds even though there doesn't appear to be any real motivation for any of them to lie, cheat, or commit fraud about this that anybody can see but they are putting their reputations on the line anyway for the sh!ts and giggles or because they are just the lying, cheating, fraudulent kind of people deep down inside and just hid it so well all their lives that we never got to see it until now and it just so happened to come out in all of them at the same time even though they all have nothing to gain and lots to lose.

So either John is trying to maximize the money he can make from this, even if he is misguided about the best way to do that, or Bob Jewett and quite a number of other respected people are lying and helping to commit this conspiracy of fraud and putting their reputations on the line for the sh!ts and giggles when they have lots to lose and nothing to gain. It is extremely clear which scenario is simpler, and more likely, and best fits Occam's razor, and it isn't the one you are suggesting.

That aside, I think you need more than "I haven't personally seen the video therefore it couldn't have happened" before you literally call the likes of Bob Jewett (not to mention all the others) a liar, cheat, and fraud, yet that is precisely what you are doing, literally.

You are an intelligent guy and are almost always on the right side of things but I think your misguided bias is getting the best of you on this one, that bias being (as per your numerous and past vehement posts) that you refuse to believe that this record could ever be broken and as great as he was you had Mosconi as some kind of inhuman god who you could never in your wildest imagination ever conceive that he could possibly ever be surpassed by anybody ever. That is what is really behind your inability to be reasonable here IMO, and even if you can't change those biases and how you feel about things surely you can see that calling someone as respected as Bob Jewett literally a liar and fraud is a more than unreasonable given all the circumstances until and unless additional and sufficient evidence were to come in that would warrant those accusations but as of now they aren't even close to warranted.


Theory 1: If video of this run is supposed to be some kind of cash cow he's better off making it into hamburgers.

Theory 2: There isn't any conspiracy. But there doesn't appear to be a run either.

Lastly, you grossly mischaracterize my position. I have said many times on this board that records were made to be broken. And if unedited video of the run was made available to the general public for review I would be more that happy to congratulate JS.

But I have seen video of of JS runs in which the balls are repeatedly greased up, or racks are twisted, or balls picked up off the table. If you do any kind of research yourself you can see these things too. So forgive me for being just a little dubious of this "world record" in light of the fact that there's no unedited video out there to look at.

Lou Figueroa
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That is not where I am going at all. Several people have viewed it. The point is, what do they all gain from a lie? Nothing. This has been around now for quite some time and at this point, it just doesn't make sense. If there is not much to gain from living a lie, then the simplest expplanation is that it's true. I do not think someone like Bob Jewett is willing to risk his reputation on BS. Do you?

I'll make this even easier for you. Why not reach out to John and ask him yourself? What is stopping you from presenting the question to him?

I undersrtand where you are coming from. I really do. I have no idea why it wouldn't be released on YouTube or some other platform. I am sure it would get a lot of views. Not everyone agrees, and I don't care that they don't. That is my opinion. Even if you just click on it and start the video, then skim through it - it is still a view.


A few people saw it with a portion played at high speed.

The two guys at the BCA who saw it may not be able to run a rack of 14.1 to save their lives and for all we know got the high speed treatment too. And further back up in this thread Bob, twice, passed on answering questions I had about the video he saw.

It's supposed to be a world record so IMO it deserves more than a skim through.

Lou Figueroa
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
Theory 1: If video of this run is supposed to be some kind of cash cow he's better off making it into hamburgers.

Theory 2: There isn't any conspiracy. But there doesn't appear to be a run either.

Lastly, you grossly mischaracterize my position. I have said many times on this board that records were made to be broken. And if unedited video of the run was made available to the general public for review I would be more that happy to congratulate JS.

But I have seen video of of JS runs in which the balls are repeatedly greased up, or racks are twisted, or balls picked up off the table. If you do any kind of research yourself you can see these things too. So forgive me for being just a little dubious of this "world record" in light of the fact that there's no unedited video out there to look at.

Lou Figueroa

I agree that I don't see this being a cash cow, but like I said, John could be misguided or have unrealistic expectations in any number of ways. Some small chance we could also be surprised and be wrong about its monetary potential. But either way, the fact that John would think it was valuable, and is looking for the best way to monetize it, not only wouldn't be unrealistic, it would almost be expected.

Well if there isn't a run, there is certainly a conspiracy, and it involves a number of respected people. Bob Jewett and others have said they have seen the entire uncut video, sometimes more than once (and I think Bob even likely has the master or a copy of it if you put the clues together, implied he knows where it has been the whole time, was able to post a screen grab from it immediately, etc). Either they are flat out lying and committing fraud and it is a big conspiracy for no good reason on all their parts, or there is an unedited record run on tape.

I can't say how many times John wiped or cleaned the balls and that wouldn't make the run illegitimate anyway if done the right way although certain other things could. What I feel pretty certain of is that if John did anything that did not make the run a legitimate one, we would have heard about it from the BCA, and certainly Bob Jewett would have assigned an asterisk along with his confirmation and would have noted greased balls, twisted racks, or anything else that would have negated the legitimacy.

I didn't mischaracterize your position by much if any. You feel that the record was such a feat that it is unlikely to ever be surpassed (even if you have to admit that you cannot say that it would theoretically be impossible), and probably couldn't be done by the players around right now or they would have already done it is essentially what you said just prior to John breaking the record. Anyway, you have a clear bias which causes a disposition to automatically see it as being essentially impossible and therefore it has to be a lie and a fraud if someone claims to have done it.

There is unedited video out there to look at, you just haven't been one of the ones that got to look at it. Because you (erroneously) believe it is so unlikely that it could ever be done, and because you so desperately hope that Mosconi's record is never broken, you are letting those things cloud your judgment and want to live in denial until you have no choice but to have to admit and maybe not even then if you can find some excuse to make to tarnish its legitimacy in your mind. It's called bias, and it happens all the time so it doesn't make you a bad guy, but you are smart enough that with some effort and honesty you should be able to see it and in light of that bias show the appropriate restraint.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The below is about as accurate a summary as can be provided by an observer.

Typical pool. No plan.

This is pool, not the MPAA. There are like 5 people who know how to rip it and another 5 who would know how to download and watch it... but technically, that would be half of the 20 people who actually give a shit enough anymore to actually buy it and watch the whole thing.

He missed the boat on it. The world in general didnt care when he did it, and now the pool world is just "meh" over it. At the start of the pandemic, he could have made a nickel, but now with all the good pool content coming out for free on youtube, content that's competition and not repetitive ball making for 4 hours, I think he missed the actual best timeframe on releasing it on any type of media. The hype is gone.

H<---would have bought a copy shortly after it happened...
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree that I don't see this being a cash cow, but like I said, John could be misguided or have unrealistic expectations in any number of ways. Some small chance we could also be surprised and be wrong about its monetary potential. But either way, the fact that John would think it was valuable, and is looking for the best way to monetize it, not only wouldn't be unrealistic, it would almost be expected.

Well if there isn't a run, there is certainly a conspiracy, and it involves a number of respected people. Bob Jewett and others have said they have seen the entire uncut video, sometimes more than once (and I think Bob even likely has the master or a copy of it if you put the clues together, implied he knows where it has been the whole time, was able to post a screen grab from it immediately, etc). Either they are flat out lying and committing fraud and it is a big conspiracy for no good reason on all their parts, or there is an unedited record run on tape.

I can't say how many times John wiped or cleaned the balls and that wouldn't make the run illegitimate anyway if done the right way although certain other things could. What I feel pretty certain of is that if John did anything that did not make the run a legitimate one, we would have heard about it from the BCA, and certainly Bob Jewett would have assigned an asterisk along with his confirmation and would have noted greased balls, twisted racks, or anything else that would have negated the legitimacy.

I didn't mischaracterize your position by much if any. You feel that the record was such a feat that it is unlikely to ever be surpassed (even if you have to admit that you cannot say that it would theoretically be impossible), and probably couldn't be done by the players around right now or they would have already done it is essentially what you said just prior to John breaking the record. Anyway, you have a clear bias which causes a disposition to automatically see it as being essentially impossible and therefore it has to be a lie and a fraud if someone claims to have done it.

There is unedited video out there to look at, you just haven't been one of the ones that got to look at it. Because you (erroneously) believe it is so unlikely that it could ever be done, and because you so desperately hope that Mosconi's record is never broken, you are letting those things cloud your judgment and want to live in denial until you have no choice but to have to admit and maybe not even then if you can find some excuse to make to tarnish its legitimacy in your mind. It's called bias, and it happens all the time so it doesn't make you a bad guy, but you are smart enough that with some effort and honesty you should be able to see it and in light of that bias show the appropriate restraint.


I don’t recall ever saying it unlikely Mosconi’s record couldn’t be broken and I am certainly not “desperate” about anything on AZ, lol.

So, as to bias, please let me remind you that this discussion has been going on for awhile now and there have been many members here — including two world class 14.1 players — who have expressed their skepticism about the run, so I am certainly not alone on any of this. As to Bob, I like and respect Bob and have known him personally going back to our college days in the San Francisco Bay Area. When at events we occasionally hang out together. But that doesn’t mean I cannot have an opinion different from his.

Bob has always been a science kinda guy. And, as I understand it, science has always honored the concept of independent verification. So perhaps one day others will be able to independently come to their own conclusions about the run after seeing what Bob has seen.

Lou Figueroa
 
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Johnny Rosato

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
After all I've read since the "attempt", I'm now iffy on believing 400
without some shennanigans.
I will admit though that he is a
fairly good straight pool player. "Knock'em out John"
 

haystj

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
After all I've read since the "attempt", I'm now iffy on believing 400
without some shennanigans.
I will admit though that he is a
fairly good straight pool player. "Knock'em out John"

"Fairly good straight pool player"?

How do you define a "Really good straight pool player"?


Too bad about all this hoopla,,, I was really excited when this all went down and now I don't give a shit.

Sucks.
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
I don’t recall ever saying it unlikely Mosconi’s record couldn’t be broken and I am certainly not “desperate” about anything on AZ, lol.

So, as to bias, please let me remind you that this discussion has been going on for awhile now and there have been many members here — including two world class 14.1 players — who have expressed their skepticism about the run, so I am certainly not alone on any of this. As to Bob, I like and respect Bob and have known him personally going back to our college days in the San Francisco Bay Area. When at events we occasionally hang out together. But that doesn’t mean I cannot have an opinion different from his.

Bob has always been a science kinda guy. And, as I understand it, science has always honored the concept of independent verification. So perhaps one day others will be able to independently come to their own conclusions about the run after seeing what Bob has seen.

Lou Figueroa

I don't disagree with much in this post. What I disagree with is that a conclusion of "well it almost certainly didn't, or even probably didn't, happen" is a reasonable one for unbiased and intelligent people given all the evidence at hand. On the other hand, "well it sure looks a lot more likely than not that it did in fact happen but because it is such a great feat I sure would like to see it for myself before I can be 100% convinced without any doubts left" could be reasonable, but you are solidly in the former and not the latter.

And there certainly isn't the evidence that supports flat out calling Bob Jewett a liar and being complicit in a big fraud here. Only bias wouldn't allow you to be able to see that IMO.
 

Dan Harriman

One of the best in 14.1
Silver Member
i sea'

ok that's it... I'm taking up straight pool and buying a webcam.

My table's rails are dead, the cloth is upside down so it's slow as hell, the balls have 15yrs on them and I don't own a polisher. Good enough to be considered legit...?

Gimmie a year and we can put this 626 thing behind us.

more than likely - u cannot pocket a ball in the ocean - with sand between yer toes, yes 14.1 is a way of life for some of us. Better to not challenge me to 14.1 - here in the states - I would help u understand the true meaning of local pro - u could even have un edited video to take home eh? You should try flipping yer cloth, then see if u can get past 526 - the true World Record - Willie's run has no corrupt hollywood question marks associated with it. Personally I think you'll be slow as hell in surpassing Mosconi's 526.
 
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Dan Harriman

One of the best in 14.1
Silver Member
nope

I don't disagree with much in this post. What I disagree with is that a conclusion of "well it almost certainly didn't, or even probably didn't, happen" is a reasonable one for unbiased and intelligent people given all the evidence at hand. On the other hand, "well it sure looks a lot more likely than not that it did in fact happen but because it is such a great feat I sure would like to see it for myself before I can be 100% convinced without any doubts left" could be reasonable, but you are solidly in the former and not the latter.

And there certainly isn't the evidence that supports flat out calling Bob Jewett a liar and being complicit in a big fraud here. Only bias wouldn't allow you to be able to see that IMO.

As I have stated before - even if this were a player whom I trusted and was in good favor with - I would still demand to see un edited proof for my own eyes to view. There is zero evidence of their claim - without 1st presenting unedited video available to the people. Two people at bca who don't even play 14.1 - and bob jewett (friend's with j.s). - does NOT = unedited proof last time I checked. Most genuinely concerned 14.1 enthusiasts would not argue my point here. Lou,myself, and many others are not so concerned with table specs - as we are unedited video proof. Also I did not care for their divisional lango - open for the 'semi public' to see? Something ain't stirring the kool aid.
 
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