Plow Through Breaks?

BilliardsAbout

BilliardsAbout

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Sorry if it's already been asked, but would anyone like to comment on Mosconi's famous "hit the rack and back into the rack again without a rail" break shots?

You can just make out one of them in The Hustler. Has anyone experimented with speed and spin to duplicate this break?

Thank you.
 
Dan White

Dan White

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BilliardsAbout said:
Sorry if it's already been asked, but would anyone like to comment on Mosconi's famous "hit the rack and back into the rack again without a rail" break shots?

You can just make out one of them in The Hustler. Has anyone experimented with speed and spin to duplicate this break?

Thank you.
Click to expand...

Sure, just play 8 hours a day for 31 years and you should about have it. :)

How far along in the Hustler is that shot? I don't remember seeing it and I'd like to check it out.
 
BilliardsAbout

BilliardsAbout

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alstl said:
50 seconds into this video.

https://vimeo.com/4957545
Click to expand...

Great post.

In the opening titles of The Hustler it seems like the cue ball comes far further off the pack and plows back in again...

...and I'd heard Greenleaf used to hit the stack then have the cue ball bounce into the air off the near side rail and come back into the stack! Sounds crazy but...
 
sjm

sjm

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From the video, I am inclined to conclude that this shot can only be performed in formal attire.
 
sfleinen

sfleinen

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BilliardsAbout said:
Great post.

In the opening titles of The Hustler it seems like the cue ball comes far further off the pack and plows back in again...

...and I'd heard Greenleaf used to hit the stack then have the cue ball bounce into the air off the near side rail and come back into the stack! Sounds crazy but...
Click to expand...

A lot of that is due to the fact that both those guys -- Mosconi and Greenleaf -- used a slip stroke, and if you're familiar with the slip stroke, you'll know that it's used to move the power band closer to the cue ball to create massive follow-through. That slip-and-regrip further back on the cue means the power band has slid forward and is now "at contact" with the cue ball, instead of expiring just in front of the cue ball as happens with a normal stationary grip.

I used to use a slip stroke before fully adopting snooker fundamentals, and one thing I miss is that power band adjustment. I was able to do things with the cue ball (like that "monster truck spinning follow on the cue ball") that I can't do now with a stationary grip, or not without a lot of "oomph" effort. (But then again, the reason why I adopted the snooker stance -- much greater accuracy -- more than makes up for it.)

-Sean
 
lfigueroa

lfigueroa

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sfleinen said:
A lot of that is due to the fact that both those guys -- Mosconi and Greenleaf -- used a slip stroke, and if you're familiar with the slip stroke, you'll know that it's used to move the power band closer to the cue ball to create massive follow-through. That slip-and-regrip further back on the cue means the power band has slid forward and is now "at contact" with the cue ball, instead of expiring just in front of the cue ball as happens with a normal stationary grip.

I used to use a slip stroke before fully adopting snooker fundamentals, and one thing I miss is that power band adjustment. I was able to do things with the cue ball (like that "monster truck spinning follow on the cue ball") that I can't do now with a stationary grip, or not without a lot of "oomph" effort. (But then again, the reason why I adopted the snooker stance -- much greater accuracy -- more than makes up for it.)

-Sean
Click to expand...


Here we go again. We've discussed this many times before and Mosconi did not use a slip stroke. Besides the recollections of many who saw him multiple times in person, the video record also does not support this claim. Why you want to keep insisting he did is beyond me.

Having "examined" Mosconi's cue ball up close and personal I think I know the reason, though I'm not giving it up as long as all this slip stroke nonsense is going on :)

Lou Figueroa
 
sfleinen

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lfigueroa said:
Here we go again. We've discussed this many times before and Mosconi did not use a slip stroke. Besides the recollections of many who saw him multiple times in person, the video record also does not support this claim. Why you want to keep insisting he did is beyond me.

Having "examined" Mosconi's cue ball up close and personal I think I know the reason, though I'm not giving it up as long as all this slip stroke nonsense is going on :)

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

Apologies Lou, hopefully we can agree to disagree respectfully.

But I think we *do* agree on the ability for Mosconi to put follow on that cue ball like it was a spinning buzzsaw, going back into the pack a second time. Agree?

-Sean
 
Bob Jewett

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You have to hit the cue ball higher than most are willing to do. To get remarkable action, which was not particularly remarkable in the linked video, it helps to have clean equipment and your own, polished cue ball. I'll see if I can do a video that is a better illustration.

Similar break shots can be done with draw where the cue ball continues to draw through a group of balls after hitting the first rank.

The idea that a slip stroke is needed for such shots is entirely bogus in my view. I have a rubber grip and my hand is not going to slip.
 
sfleinen

sfleinen

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Bob Jewett said:
You have to hit the cue ball higher than most are willing to do. To get remarkable action, which was not particularly remarkable in the linked video, it helps to have clean equipment and your own, polished cue ball. I'll see if I can do a video that is a better illustration.

Similar break shots can be done with draw where the cue ball continues to draw through a group of balls after hitting the first rank.

The idea that a slip stroke is needed for such shots is entirely bogus in my view. I have a rubber grip and my hand is not going to slip.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying it's "needed," Bob. Words can be yummy, but not when they're forced into your mouth. ;) I say it's easier, because it moves the power band of the stroke closer to the cue ball during the slip-and-regrip phase. One can DEFINITELY put the same action on a cue ball with a normal stationary grip, but it requires some oomph.

And I use a rubber carom grip on my cues, as well. (On those few left that still have linen grips, anyway.)

-Sean
 
S

sparkle84

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It's been a long time but as I recall Mosconi used a slip stroke on occasion but not exclusively. The '70's was 40 yrs. ago & details fade. One that doesn't however is how he could make the CB nibble it's way through secondary clusters while using such a soft speed. A thing of beauty. Larry Johnson also employed a slip stroke frequently but more often for 3 Cushion than pool.
I'm with Bob as far as a slip stroke having no effect on CB action. The CB has no memory even though it seems to have a mind of it's own sometimes. Well, for most of us that is. Mosconi's CB always did exactly what it was told to do.
 
sfleinen

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wigglybridge said:
ok, somebody wanna enlighten me?

what's a "power band"?
Click to expand...

Bob:

Apologies about that -- work habits die hard. Power band is used in the engine/motor industry to describe the point at which the most power from a motor is offered:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_band

Applying this to the cueing stroke, the most power (most acceleration) is usually early in the stroke, after the cue has started moving from "zero" (stationary position). It's at this point when the cue is in full acceleration, and usually flattens out before the cue even hits the cue ball.

Obviously, the cue ball leaves the cue tip in 1/1,000th of a second, so in power strokes, you'll want the contact to occur during the maximum (peak) of the power band, not after it has leveled off, or is in the process of coasting or dying out.

I'm probably using the wrong term, because it is, after all, an engine/motor term, not a kinesiologic term. But I hope you understand what I mean?

-Sean
 
Bob Jewett

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sfleinen said:
... Obviously, the cue ball leaves the cue tip in 1/1,000th of a second, so in power strokes, you'll want the contact to occur during the maximum (peak) of the power band, not after it has leveled off, or is in the process of coasting or dying out. ...
Click to expand...
I think for maximum cue ball speed you want to hit the ball when the stick is going at maximum speed. By definition, that is at zero power into the stick. There are constraints in normal shots, such as accuracy of tip placement. If you wait for zero acceleration on a power shot you will probably have a very long bridge.

But on the break shot in question, you do not need maximum stick speed nor do you want it unless you want the cue ball to go over the rack. What you need is medium speed and large tip offset (follow).
 
lfigueroa

lfigueroa

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sfleinen said:
Apologies Lou, hopefully we can agree to disagree respectfully.

But I think we *do* agree on the ability for Mosconi to put follow on that cue ball like it was a spinning buzzsaw, going back into the pack a second time. Agree?

-Sean
Click to expand...


It's difficult to respect a position that goes contrary to the recollections of many who saw him in person multiple times and the available video record. And yes I have said before how it was amazing to watch his CB plow repeatedly into the rack as if there were a little engine inside the ball. And lastly, the CB does not care where your grip hand is or what it's doing, slip stroke or no.

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa

lfigueroa

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Bob Jewett said:
You have to hit the cue ball higher than most are willing to do. To get remarkable action, which was not particularly remarkable in the linked video, it helps to have clean equipment and your own, polished cue ball. I'll see if I can do a video that is a better illustration.

Similar break shots can be done with draw where the cue ball continues to draw through a group of balls after hitting the first rank.

The idea that a slip stroke is needed for such shots is entirely bogus in my view. I have a rubber grip and my hand is not going to slip.
Click to expand...


Thank you.

Lou Figueroa
tank you
berry much
 
alstl

alstl

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Why I'm getting involved I don't know but I've seen videos of Mosconi where sometimes he used a slip stroke. That isn't why he executed that shot however. He used a ton of high English. It also depends on where the cue ball contacts the object ball. Others who come to mind who executed that shot well are Mizerak and Immonen.

Just my opinion.
 
lfigueroa

lfigueroa

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alstl said:
Why I'm getting involved I don't know but I've seen videos of Mosconi where sometimes he used a slip stroke. That isn't why he executed that shot however. He used a ton of high English. It also depends on where the cue ball contacts the object ball. Others who come to mind who executed that shot well are Mizerak and Immonen.

Just my opinion.
Click to expand...


What video please? Time hack too.

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa

lfigueroa

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bbb said:
i happened to be lurking here....:embarrassed2:
watching the video rekindled my respect and beauty of 14.1:wink:
thanks for the link
Click to expand...


AND, if you'll note, that on that shot -- 50 seconds into that vid -- he *does not* use a slip stroke, clearly finishing with his standard hand forward of perpendicular grip.

Lou Figueroa
 
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