Great Column by George Fels

Great write up. Thanks George.

Great article George!

Great stuff!

Thanks for the great read Dennis....and special thanks to George for a great write-up !!!

-Steve

Nice

I eagerly await their response to George's questions, but I'm afraid if they respond at all it'll be a canned release to avoid the messiness that a debate on the topic invites. What a sad and pathetic situation. Money, money, money...it's always all about money.

Ron F

Great article, George. Well said.

Although I'm NOT a CW fan or DP fan, I agree with George's article. Why NOT sanction an event when there clearly isn't another 14.1 event to step-up and be the 2011 championship.

Isn't SOMETHING better than NOTHING?

Very confusing.

George fels article

I appreciate George Fel's columns- have for years.
However, I have to respectfully disagree with his viewpoint (and probably a lot of others).

This was not a world championship. It did not meet the requirements - nor other criteria that the WPA has in place.

I do not want to get into pissing contests with everyone - and I am not and cannot speak for the WPA.

I sense there will be hostility in this topic and I wouldn't blame them for not responding.

But I am a glutton for punishment I guess. LOL.
It is not about the money - it is about procedure. Everyone thinks everything is about money - well you are incorrect.

There has to be policy and procedures in place or we can all have a world championship. And that has happened before. And dragon/CW has done it before.

We all applaud them bringing back and supporting 14.1. That is not the point.

I am surprised that Dennis Walsh - an attorney- who is trained to analyze the facts - has allowed himself to be swayed by these shallow arguments. This is not meant to demean Dennis in any way. He is an avid supporter - and that is a god thing.

We can be on different sides of this and still be friends and still be civil.

I will discuss my arguments with anyone who will listen to logic. No name calling and no screaming. Just a logical debate.

My phone is 702-835-2000. That is my cell. I will only talk to people who identify themselves.

Thank you-

Mark griffin

dmgwalsh said:

Mr. Griffin:

I suspected you would jump into this thread because I have seen you jump into any thread that involves Dragon calling this Championship the World Championship.
That is because it is NOT a true world championship. That is the point being debated.
I thought it was good for the 14.1 community that an icon of the pool world with something of a bully pulpit took the opportunity to champion the cause of straight pool and that is why I chose to broadcast George's column. I thought George brought up a lot of interesting points and he actually said he did not know the answers and merely invited the WPA to answer them for him.
I agree that George Fels brought up some interesteing points - however no one can argue that the event did NOT meet the standards of a Worl Championship. i think the debate is why doesn't the WPA 'relax' those standards. I cannot answer that for them.
Since, as you admit, you do not speak for the WPA, I would assume you are not answering his questions for him.
That is correct.

I didn't think that you would attack me personally and allude to me being an attorney trained to analyze the facts and gosh almighty how on earth could I actually come to whatever conclusion it is you think I came to. You mention me being swayed by shallow arguments. By which shallow arguments was I swayed? And to where was I swayed?
I believe your posts have you trying to convince everyone that this should be a World Championship - so I assume you believe it should be. That is not a factual argument. The fact remains that the WPA has determined (for whatever reason) that the event did NOT meet the standards. I did not try to personally attack you - but a lot of people look up to your opinion as an avid fan of 14.1 and as an attorney. I apologize if you think I attacked you. Just say we agree to disagree. I (and many others) appreciate all you have done for 14.1. I was merely bringing George's column to the attention of some of the fans of the sport.
I know the WPA does not consider it a World Championship. I know they did not sanction the event.

The same thing happened the last couple of years. In fact, Charlie Williams was asking me and my friends to help raise money so the event could be sanctioned. While we were able to raise a little, it was not enough. The end result of the non sanctioning was that a lot of Europeans who came when the event was sanctioned could not come the past three years. It was a loss for all who love straight pool.
Therein lies a couple of the major reasons that this was NOT a sanctioned event. Again, it did not go through the proper procedures. It was a loss to the world of 14.1 - but it was NOT a World Championship - if it was, many of the foreign players would have been in attendence.Nonetheless, it is the only game in town and the best opportunity to see the best 14.1 competition that I know of. Until something better comes along, and I see no mad rush by others to do so, it will be a World Championship to me and I will treat the winners with the respect a World Champion has earned.

Click to expand...

And again - that is your opinion. However just because some elect to call it a World Championship - does not make it one.

Dennis, If you get a chance, give me a call sometime and we can have a talk. Perhaps one of us will succeed in convincing the other. Either way, we will have a better understanding of each other. I do respect your involvemnet in the world of pool. We can be friends and still disagree.Respectfully,

Mark Griffin

Mark Griffin said:

I appreciate George Fel's columns- have for years.
However, I have to respectfully disagree with his viewpoint (and probably a lot of others).

This was not a world championship. It did not meet the requirements - nor other criteria that the WPA has in place.

I do not want to get into pissing contests with everyone - and I am not and cannot speak for the WPA.

I sense there will be hostility in this topic and I wouldn't blame them for not responding.

But I am a glutton for punishment I guess. LOL.
It is not about the money - it is about procedure. Everyone thinks everything is about money - well you are incorrect.

There has to be policy and procedures in place or we can all have a world championship. And that has happened before. And dragon/CW has done it before.

We all applaud them bringing back and supporting 14.1. That is not the point.

I am surprised that Dennis Walsh - an attorney- who is trained to analyze the facts - has allowed himself to be swayed by these shallow arguments. This is not meant to demean Dennis in any way. He is an avid supporter - and that is a god thing.

We can be on different sides of this and still be friends and still be civil.

I will discuss my arguments with anyone who will listen to logic. No name calling and no screaming. Just a logical debate.

My phone is 702-835-2000. That is my cell. I will only talk to people who identify themselves.

Thank you-

Mark griffin

Click to expand...

Though, like Dennis, I liked the well-considered article by George Fels, I agree with most of what you've written.

As you note, Mark, calling it a world championship doesn't make it a world championship. What Dragon's event is, however, is the premier 14.1 event on the world pool calendar, the only annual event that brings together most, though certainly not all, of the stars of the 14.1 discipline.

Intentionally omitting consideration of many of the issues, I must comment that the only point on which I'm not totally on board with you is the one about whether it's about the money. I do appreciate that some of the sanctioning issues are about procedure. For example, as far as I know, all the qualifying events for the Dragon event are in the United States. Qualifier winners, of course, get free entry. I'm sure that the WPA would observe that selecton criteria for a sanctioned world championship ought to be completely objective in an international context. I think it likely, though I cannot personally confirm it, that Dragon comes up a bit short procedurally in some other respects as far as the attainment of sanctioning, although I know they work hard and do the best they can year after year. I also think money has a lot to do with the sanctioning issue. I can see where WPA is coming in establishing a minimum added prize fund for an event to qualify as a world championship. If an event has an insufficient prize fund, it will not be able to attract all those who ought to be competing for the world championship and, therefore, an appropriate prize fund is needed to legitimize an event to the point of possible sanctioning as a world championship. Perhaps, then, there is no basis for bemoaning the financial requirements for sanctioning.

The question, it seems, is whether the procedural and financial requirements for sactioning should be relaxed in the case of lesser disciplines, emerging disciplines, and re-emerging disciplines to help them become more established. As a fan, I certainly support this, but can certainly see why it's not a no brainer for the WPA when it comes to disciplines like one pocket, bank pool, and straight pool.

It's about money, at least to some extent, when WPA requires added prize money that cannot realistically be gathered at this moment in the world economy for an event in a secondary or emerging discipline. That does not, however, mean that WPA policy is inappropriate. It's merely debatable.

For those who missed it, Jerry answered most of the questions in the article in the following post located this thread http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=243748.

It was written during the World Championships in response to Max Eberle's assertion that the tournament is a World Championship with or without sanctioning.


Jerry Forsyth:

Max,

With all due respect, your post shows a distinct lack of understanding about how World Championships must be conducted. And your insinuation that the WPA and the BCA do not recognize this "World Tournament" because they wish to pull a 'power play' or because it is politically based is nothing more than a lie. So let's talk about World Championships and why this event is not one of them and will not be recognized as one now or in the future.

Prior to the formation of the WPA (and for years afterward) in 1992 there were myriads of "World Championships". The Jansco's held World Championships in a bar and allowed anyone with the entry fee to play. No qualifications required. Every player organization held their own World Championships with no countries other than America represented. One Hall Of Famer has the phrase "Over 80 World Titles" on his business card. 80 World Titles in a playing career of 35 years? Nope. Not possible. What the card should say is "over 80 titles in events that called themselves World Championships".

The governing bodies of pool worldwide saw this as a huge problem because:
a) World Championship titles meant nothing. If there are three World 9-Ball Championships in a year, who is the true World Champion? No way to know.
b) There was no incentive for a legitimate promoter to go to the effort of staging a true World Championship since he could go to a great deal of trouble and expense to have an event that is lost in the cluster of events calling themselves World Championships.
c) This situation was extremely damaging to the game. When fans and sponsors do not have a central focus point the game loses impact.

So the disparate Governing Bodies around the world (the EPBF, the APBU, the BCA, etc) came together to organize the sport on a world-wide basis and bring some order to the chaos. This is still a work in progress (and will be for some time yet) and there are still those whose personal motives are at odds with the goal of raising the game to a truly professional level. But most promoters around the world have agreed to the rules and adhere to them. These rules include:

A MINIMUM ADDED MONEY AMOUNT: You cannot have a 'cheap' World Championship. The goal is to continually raise the amounts required for world titles so that players from all over the world can afford to participate. Frankly, with most World Championships only offering an added money amount of $200,000 we are not there yet. As I said, this is a work in progress, but we cannot have cheap events anymore. The WPA made the mistake of sanctioning the earlier Dragon 14.1 events as World Championships because it was hoped that the events would grow rich enough in time to make them worthy of WC status. But this really backfired. The promoters who were being required to put up $200,000 in added money complained (rightfully) that they had to scourge the earth to find the sponsorship dollars to hold a World Championship while Dragon was allowed to add small monies and have the same title. This was totally unfair to the promoters of those events, their sponsors who must cough up large sums, and to the players who had to endure travel expenses that could not be recovered from the prize fund.

In the near future there will be a true World 14.1 Championship. The WPA is in talks with interested parties now to make this happen. But I am sure you understand that we cannot demand big money from them and also recognize much smaller events from others. The minimum we would now require for a 14.1 Championship is $100,000 with a written plan to bring this over $200,000 in a short period of time.

INVITATIONS: Promoters do not control the invitation process in World Championships. The international federations do the invites from their ranking lists. That way you do not wind up with over 50 players from the USA in a 64-man field, a fact that by itself disqualifies this event as a World Championship. (America has only two players in the top 75 players in the world. To ignore that fact is very, very nearsighted.) Had Charlie wished to call this a National Championship he would have no problems, but he has overstepped the bounds of propriety by attempting to portray this as a World Event. You cannot have 'B' and 'C' players participate in a World Championship just to fill out the field. That can be done in large tournaments, but not in a World Event. Dragon, at one point, actually invited players to come down out of the stands and play to fill out one of their 14.1 fields. That flies in the face of any event worthy of WC status.

OUTSIDE CONTROL OF MANAGEMENT: WPA promoters do not have the final say in how their events are conducted or what rules they will use. This is all prescribed by the WPA and WPA officials are on site to (among other things) over-rule promoters who wish to 'customize' their event in a way that could be deemed detrimental to the sport, such as having near-amateur players and even sponsors participate in the competition.

I am forever bemused and amazed that professional players wish to take steps to cripple and cheapen the game in which they attempt to make a living. The BCA has a rule that no BCA points event may have less than $25,000 added - a rule that was put in place to protect you from promoters who would not do the work to generate the proper amount of added money. The players all agreed to this when it was put in place. But then those same players wanted the Hopkins event in 2010 (maybe this was 2009, not sure) to be a points event even though it only added $20,000. Hopkins understood the facts of life and was fine with it and the following year became a points event again by adding the $25,000. You guys are like a bunch of employees who sometimes ask to be paid less. This is not in your best interest and I fail to understand it. Why you do not declare a minimum for any event for you to participate in is a mystery. As long as you continue to play in cheap events you are preventing the game from ever paying decent prize funds. None of you should ever show up at an event that is less than $25,000 added unless it is a local event in your own backyard where there are no travel costs associated. And, really, even those should be left to the amateurs. Amateur prize funds should not attract professional play.

Max, the governing bodies of pool truly are working hard to make this game bigger but we get zero assistance from the pros in so doing. These governing bodies long ago set minimum standards. It would be in your own best interest if the players would do the same. As long as promoters know that you guys will travel coast to coast for $20,000 added then there is no need for them to pay you properly.

The WPA, despite all of the criticism that it receives, is determined to grow the sport and the purses of the events. In the last ten years the WPA has gone from a total yearly prize payout of $400,000 to one this year of around 2.3 million dollars and, next year, to about 3 million. That is not enough. It needs to be MUCH larger if this game is to ever gain popularity and be a decent vehicle for professionals to earn a living. But you need to stop spitting at those who are serving to generate a better future for you and you need to stop supporting events that do not pay you decently. If you guys want to live in poverty forever you can. But you do not have to. Set standards and then live by them and your fortunes can improve rapidly. Or continue the game on its now 50-year decline and put the blame for it on others as you have in your post. But if you really want to know who is to blame for the state of the game today, go find a mirror.

For Mark Griffin

If I HAD a viewpoint on this, Mark, I wouldn't have titled my column "I Don't Know." All I did was pose what I thought were some logical questions, along with some of the logic behind them. I imagine once I get the answers I requested, I'll have a point of view. Needless to say, your right to disagree with anything I say or write is indisputable. But I'm really not sure what viewpoint it is that you seem to disagree with. GF

George Fels said:

If I HAD a viewpoint on this, Mark, I wouldn't have titled my column "I Don't Know." All I did was pose what I thought were some logical questions, along with some of the logic behind them. I imagine once I get the answers I requested, I'll have a point of view. Needless to say, your right to disagree with anything I say or write is indisputable. But I'm really not sure what viewpoint it is that you seem to disagree with. GF

Click to expand...

In my opinion, the question posed to WPA in your superb article "... you require nearly three times that much before a competition is considered world-class in your eyes. For this pool game? On this continent? On this planet?" constitues a point of view.

As written, this expresses disbelief in WPA's decision to withdraw sanctioning and attacks its underlying logic. It exhibits the point of view that sanctioning requirements should be relaxed in the case of a lesser discipline like straight pool. Some, myself included, would agree and others would disagree. Some, quite logically, raise the question of whether straight pool even needs a world championship at all as a secondary discipline failing to gather a prize fund sufficient to attract all (or nearly all of) the top international contenders.

I do recognize that you hope for more information and are flexible in your point of view, but I feel you have, in writing, opposed the actions taken by WPA.

Stu

Very good points, Stuart...

...although I think we're mostly talking semantics. Rest assured that I'm not passing any judgments until I get the answers I asked for - and I don't expect that my judgment will make a great deal of difference then. GF

George Fels said:

...although I think we're mostly talking semantics. Rest assured that I'm not passing any judgments until I get the answers I asked for - and I don't expect that my judgment will make a great deal of difference then. GF

Click to expand...

lol. Do you really -- trying to be realistic here -- even expect to ever actually get coherent answers?

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa

Good question, Lou. I imagine there are arguments on both sides of that, but nothing would surprise me. Good to hear from you. Best regards, GF

Column

Great thread!!

It has been George Fels' writings that have stimulated me to continue to buy the Billiards Digest Magazine. I find his writings unbiassed, informative and imaginative. Of which I am thankful.

The sad state of our Billiards World has been shrinking the same way the as the content of the Billiard Magazines. All of the Magazines used to sport 100 pages plus, but now are only 60 or 70 pages.

The WPA rules for sanctioning seem to be very clear. I would question Dragon Promotion's case for entitling their event a World Championship when they know it does not truly qualify as one under the WPA stipulations? It is my humble opinion, that is the root of any controversary. According to the information listed here, it appears it was only during the years that sanctioning was respectfully given to the event, that more actual International players attended.

Possibly, it should be called the World Invitational 14.1 Championship since the field is mostly filled by players who are invited to put up their $500 to compete versus being open to anyone or sanctioned for all WPA players to earn points.

In any case, it is the best 14.1 event for now. I love it and I hope very much that it will continue.

Good questions George !

Why do I feel like I will never hear a response to them?