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Ipmtim
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01-18-2020, 06:57 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by deanoc View Post
There are a few of you guys that hate my PTBarnum method of sales.You don't like the outrageous claims I make,whether it be female attention or a nice cue.
Of course I stand behind every cue,open your box and return the cue if you don't like it.

After 10 plus years not one person has been disasisfied with anything I have done.Every customer is either satisfied or gets his money back.

Deano cues was my introduction to AZ,I sold acue that would help you shoot better,it had no guarantee and I bragged about it.It was named for me and sold under my name,but an unheard of cue malker at the time John Nemic actually made the cues,did the work,. It was my idea of big wood pin,thick billiard taper,and tung oil finish so you had a sneaky pete but the finish on the cue allowed you to play without that clamy feel in your back hand

Since then I didn't do pictures and you complained about that.Seems some of you just like to see pictures and from your feed back it looks like that is all.

I purposely sold this way to reduce the number of calls I got to serious buyers. I don't care about talking about cues with people that are not going to buy. It is called qualifying the prospect.

The AZ groupie pundits complained,the more they complain ,the more orders I got and nothing seems to change


Rave on,Jackpot cues have aleary sold out,everyone liked their cues ,some ordered a second cue

After all your talk no omne has asked for their money back,in fact we have received an order on here for another new one.

No one has been unhappy that bought a cue from me here or ever,that is unless they asked and received a refund upon receiving their cue.With the high number of cues I sell you have to expect someone to be unhappy and want their money back

So far the only public cries are from those who didn't get a cue.

There seems to be a pattern,

TWO KINDS OF PEOPLE

1 Buyers

these guys are out playing with their new cues
they love their cues

these guys are happy,they tell us so

2 The guys who openly claim they would never buy sight unseen,
they especially think buying without pictures is a bad idea.

These guys are mad about something,probably be a lot happier if they had bought

THE VERDICT IS IN

if you want to be happy and enjoy pool buy a cue from Dean
Tap, tap.
I belong to 3 internet forums that are connected to the hobbies I'm passionate about.
Harley Davidsons, Corvettes, and pool.
What's funny is you would think that the most arrogant one would be Corvette owners. You'd be wrong by a long shot.
The most helpful guys are the Harley guys.
The rudest and most arrogant ones are the keyboard warriors here.
Buy a Jackpot or Don't. Why bash?
Flame way, I don't give a shit, I'm a grown man and have taken worse.
Dean, don't bother to respond or justify your position.
Your reputation and money back guaranty speaks for itself.
Signed,
A regular guy that stands at the urinal like the rest of you.
  
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  (#47)
Nullus
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01-18-2020, 06:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by logical View Post
This really isn't about the lack of pictures or whether they are worth $5-600...and there have been pictures posted. People can decide to buy sight unseen if they want.

This thread is about some feeling they have been decieved about the maker. Should they feel that way ?...I really don't know.

Sent from the future.
Yes, they should if Jack didn't actually make the cues, per one of Dean's recent posts where he is supposedly overseeing the production of them rather than making them. It's a fine line, but an important one. That, combined with no knowledge of who he has actually making them, provides for a complete lack of transparency. I also get that Dean is being a stand up guy and offering refunds, but as I stated earlier, it appears quite a few of the cues ended up in the hands of Jack's personal friends. Regardless, kudos for him making a business out of selling unknown cues to whomever is willing to pay for them.


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01-18-2020, 07:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by deanoc View Post
There are a few of you guys that hate my PTBarnum method of sales.You don't like the outrageous claims I make,whether it be female attention or a nice cue.
Of course I stand behind every cue,open your box and return the cue if you don't like it.

After 10 plus years not one person has been disasisfied with anything I have done.Every customer is either satisfied or gets his money back.

Deano cues was my introduction to AZ,I sold acue that would help you shoot better,it had no guarantee and I bragged about it.It was named for me and sold under my name,but an unheard of cue malker at the time John Nemic actually made the cues,did the work,. It was my idea of big wood pin,thick billiard taper,and tung oil finish so you had a sneaky pete but the finish on the cue allowed you to play without that clamy feel in your back hand

Since then I didn't do pictures and you complained about that.Seems some of you just like to see pictures and from your feed back it looks like that is all.

I purposely sold this way to reduce the number of calls I got to serious buyers. I don't care about talking about cues with people that are not going to buy. It is called qualifying the prospect.

The AZ groupie pundits complained,the more they complain ,the more orders I got and nothing seems to change


Rave on,Jackpot cues have aleary sold out,everyone liked their cues ,some ordered a second cue

After all your talk no omne has asked for their money back,in fact we have received an order on here for another new one.

No one has been unhappy that bought a cue from me here or ever,that is unless they asked and received a refund upon receiving their cue.With the high number of cues I sell you have to expect someone to be unhappy and want their money back

So far the only public cries are from those who didn't get a cue.

There seems to be a pattern,

TWO KINDS OF PEOPLE

1 Buyers

these guys are out playing with their new cues
they love their cues

these guys are happy,they tell us so

2 The guys who openly claim they would never buy sight unseen,
they especially think buying without pictures is a bad idea.

These guys are mad about something,probably be a lot happier if they had bought

THE VERDICT IS IN

if you want to be happy and enjoy pool buy a cue from Dean
Dean, you are good, very good.

Marketing 101:

1) Know your customer.

2) Never under-estimate, or insult, your customer.

3) Deliver what you promised, or more.

4) Stand behind your product.

5) Know your customer.

  
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HawaiianEye
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01-18-2020, 07:44 AM

I have a Jackpot cue and it plays really good, no matter who made it, or where it came from.

I DIDN'T buy it sight unseen from Dean. I got it in a trade from someone who got it from Dean in the initial batch that was sold.

I saw it and hit balls with it before I ever traded for it.

The reason I got it was because I LIKED the way it played and it played so good that I ordered another one.

I never was told that Jack was sitting at the lathe spinning out all the cues and I gathered that there was someone else involved, but that didn't matter to me.

FWIW, I have had Richard Black custom make me two cues, way back in 1978 and 1981, when he worked alone.

I recently called him to inquire about him making me another cue or maybe a shaft for one of my current cues.

He told me that he DIDN'T TOUCH anything under $5,000. Anything under that amount was built by someone he taught in his old shop, not even in the same place where Richard worked on his $5,000, and above, cues.

Are the under $5,000 cues "Richard Black" cues or should they be labelled as something else?

I have quite a few posts on here and if you care to do a search you can find them.

I've always said that I like cues for how they play. I don't care what they look like or who made them.

Last edited by HawaiianEye; 01-18-2020 at 07:47 AM.
  
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01-18-2020, 07:44 AM

Nuklles

How does it appear that the cues ended up in the hands of jacks personal friends

name one

But for arguments sake lets say they all ended up in the hands of Jacks personal friends

That tells us that those who knew him best trusted
him and wanted to buy whatever he put his name on

So my questiont to you is"why are you worried about protecting Jacks personal friends?"

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Snooker Theory
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01-18-2020, 07:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawaiianEye View Post

FWIW, I have had Richard Black custom make me two cues, way back in 1978 and 1981, when he worked alone.

I recently called him to inquire about him making me another cue or maybe a shaft for one of my current cues.

He told me that he DIDN'T TOUCH anything under $5,000. Anything under that amount was built by someone he taught in his old shop, not even in the same place where Richard worked on his $5,000, and above, cues.

Are the under $5,000 cues "Richard Black" cues or should they be labelled as something else?
As for your question, I think it's unfortunate if someone spends 5grand for a cue to be built by Richard Black and his apprentice builds them, sure Richard probably checks for quality.

So when Richard told you that, did you still order the shaft from him, I would assume not?

Although kudos to him for being forthcoming.

I read black boar cues with 6 points are generally worth more than 4 pointers with intricate deaigns because Tony made them.


Should a Leon Sly cue built by Harris, and a Leon Sly built by Sly have different names, I personally think so if there isn't full disclosure beforehand.
  
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Cornerman
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01-18-2020, 07:57 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nullus View Post
Yes, they should if Jack didn't actually make the cues, per one of Dean's recent posts where he is supposedly overseeing the production of them rather than making them. It's a fine line, but an important one. That, combined with no knowledge of who he has actually making them, provides for a complete lack of transparency. I also get that Dean is being a stand up guy and offering refunds, but as I stated earlier, it appears quite a few of the cues ended up in the hands of Jack's personal friends. Regardless, kudos for him making a business out of selling unknown cues to whomever is willing to pay for them.
I donít know how to find this line of which you speak of. The great Richard Helmstetter did not build Adam cues. He oversaw the production. Not that he didnít make cues. He did. But the vast majority of Adam cues while he was in Japan werenít touched by him. Does that ruin his legacy? Absolutely not.

There are plenty of Cuemakers out there who have helpers that do quite a significant amount of work. The fabled Tim Scruggs Sneaky Petes were built by Bob Frey before Bob went on his own. Does that ruin the fable ? Absolutely not.


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HawaiianEye
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01-18-2020, 08:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snooker Theory View Post

As for your question, I think it's unfortunate if someone spends 5grand for a cue to be built by Richard Black and his apprentice builds them, sure Richard probably checks for quality.

So when Richard told you that, did you still order the shaft from him, I would assume not?

Although kudos to him for being forthcoming.

I read black boar cues with 6 points are generally worth more than 4 pointers with intricate deaigns because Tony made them.


Should a Leon Sly cue built by Harris, and a Leon Sly built by Sly have different names, I personally think so if there isn't full disclosure beforehand.
The impression I got from Richard was that he didn't even "see" the cues that weren't "touched" by him. He trusted whoever the maker was with everything.

And, no, I didn't buy a cue because what I was really interested in was a shaft. The reason I didn't buy a shaft was because I thought the price was a bit higher than I wanted to pay and because they WOULDN'T ship an ivory ferrule shaft to Hawaii.
  
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01-18-2020, 08:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornerman View Post
I donít know how to find this line of which you speak of. The great Richard Helmstetter did not build Adam cues. He oversaw the production. Not that he didnít make cues. He did. But the vast majority of Adam cues while he was in Japan werenít touched by him. Does that ruin his legacy? Absolutely not.

There are plenty of Cuemakers out there who have helpers that do quite a significant amount of work. The fabled Tim Scruggs Sneaky Petes were built by Bob Frey before Bob went on his own. Does that ruin the fable ? Absolutely not.
I visited the ADAM company in Japan when Dick Helmstetter was living there. He had one of his Japanese workers replace an ivory ferrule on my Richard Black cue.

He showed me around the factory and told me how all the stuff worked.

He wasn't inside spinning cues.

All the workers were Japanese.

I didn't see any Japanese "Richard Helmstetters".
  
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Snooker Theory
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01-18-2020, 08:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawaiianEye View Post
I visited the ADAM company in Japan when Dick Helmstetter was living there. He had one of his Japanese workers replace an ivory ferrule on my Richard Black cue.

He showed me around the factory and told me how all the stuff worked.

He wasn't inside spinning cues.

All the workers were Japanese.

I didn't see any Japanese "Richard Helmstetters".
If Helmstetter had made cues personally, I would assume they would command a higher value and be much more sought after than cues built by his staff, what do you think?
Would you have paid the money if Richard Black was actually making your shaft, instead of an apprentice making it that Richard may never see?
Mike Siegel cues come to mind...
  
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01-18-2020, 08:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snooker Theory View Post
If Helmstetter had made cues personally, I would assume they would command a higher value and be much more sought after than cues built by his staff, what do you think?
Would you have paid the money if Richard Black was actually making your shaft, instead of an apprentice making it that Richard may never see?
Mike Siegel cues come to mind...
I've never seen a cue that Helmstetter made. I've only seen the Japanese ones. I can't compare.

I thought the price for the Richard Black shaft was higher than I wanted to pay. I also wanted an ivory ferrule, which they wouldn't ship.

As far as shafts being made by Richard, himself, I have had "hit or miss" shafts made by HIM. It wasn't his fault, I'm sure...no two pieces of wood play the same. I wasn't willing to pay the price for something that may be a "miss", whether it was made by him or not.
  
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01-18-2020, 08:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by deanoc View Post
<<<snip>>>

There seems to be a pattern,

TWO KINDS OF PEOPLE

1 Buyers

these guys are out playing with their new cues
they love their cues

these guys are happy,they tell us so

2 The guys who openly claim they would never buy sight unseen,
they especially think buying without pictures is a bad idea.

These guys are mad about something,probably be a lot happier if they had bought

THE VERDICT IS IN

if you want to be happy and enjoy pool buy a cue from Dean
If I may, I'd like to offer that there are guys like me who fall into a 3rd category:

They are the ones who are particular and know what they like / don't like and prefer to make their own decisions about what equipment they get. For the guys who like the 'surprise effect' of buying sight unseen I say more power to them but that's never gonna be me.

I do like to gamble though, on football and pool, that sort of thing. But not on what cue might arrive in the mail. I don't like the idea that someone other than me would be deciding what I play with. But, again, to each their own.

And now more to the topic at hand, the "Jackpot" cues. If Dean had someone other than Jack Potter make those cues that he was inundating us with in his ads on both the Main and For Sale forums then that, imo, goes way beyond his usual PT Barnum sales style and falls squarely in the middle of deceptive sales.

So, has it been determined yet who made the "Jackpot" cues?

best,
brian kc


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01-18-2020, 08:29 AM

I think it is pretty clear that Jack didn't turn any wood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickin' Chicken View Post
If I may, I'd like to offer that there are guys like me who would fall into a 3rd category:

They are the ones who are particular and know what they like / don't like and prefer to make their own decisions about what equipment they get. For the guys who like the 'surprise effect' of buying sight unseen I say more power to you but that is never gonna be me.

I do like to gamble though, on football and pool, that sort of thing. But not on what cue might arrive in the mail. I don't like the idea that someone other than me would be deciding what I should play with. But, again, to each their own.

And now more to the topic at hand, the "Jackpot" cues. If Dean had someone other than Jack Potter make those cues that he was inundating us with in his ads on both the Main and For Sale forums then that, imo, goes way beyond his usual PT Barnum sales style and falls squarely in the middle of deceptive sales.

So, has it been determined yet if Jack Potter made the "Jackpot" cues?

best,
brian kc


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01-18-2020, 08:31 AM

And I think the quality of the cue has to be the main determination of its worth.

By all accounts from those whove touched them, they seem to have been found a worthy value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawaiianEye View Post
I have a Jackpot cue and it plays really good, no matter who made it, or where it came from.

I DIDN'T buy it sight unseen from Dean. I got it in a trade from someone who got it from Dean in the initial batch that was sold.

I saw it and hit balls with it before I ever traded for it.

The reason I got it was because I LIKED the way it played and it played so good that I ordered another one.

I never was told that Jack was sitting at the lathe spinning out all the cues and I gathered that there was someone else involved, but that didn't matter to me.

FWIW, I have had Richard Black custom make me two cues, way back in 1978 and 1981, when he worked alone.

I recently called him to inquire about him making me another cue or maybe a shaft for one of my current cues.

He told me that he DIDN'T TOUCH anything under $5,000. Anything under that amount was built by someone he taught in his old shop, not even in the same place where Richard worked on his $5,000, and above, cues.

Are the under $5,000 cues "Richard Black" cues or should they be labelled as something else?

I have quite a few posts on here and if you care to do a search you can find them.

I've always said that I like cues for how they play. I don't care what they look like or who made them.


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With no opposing no undue disclosing
Nothing stale nothing old or decomposing
Nothing empty nothing bold or over knowing
Nothing more than tasteful reconstruction
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It's on the goodness of our dime that you can function
  
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01-18-2020, 08:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black-Balled View Post
And I think the quality of the cue has to be the main determination of its worth.

By all accounts from those whove touched them, they seem to have been found a worthy value.
value notwithstanding, do you think stating in sales ads that Jack would be making "a batch" of Jackpot cues and omitting who was actually making them was good business practice?


"Don't let your alligator mouth overload your jaybird ass!" - my Father

"That was stronger than cat piss, right there." - Brandon Shuff


Playing cues: Tim Scruggs - Jeff Olney
Break cue: Predator BK2 w/White Diamond Tip
Jump cue: Jacoby/Lomax
  
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