Is the Tip More Important than Deflection Considerations?

K

KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ShortBusRuss said:
Deflection is greatly overrated if one's game is properly based on center ball. I can break and runoi racks of barbox eight ball using a phenolic tip, on a factory Schon shaft, which is absolutely about as high deflection as one can get.
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Oh so you mean you can do ok with high deflection in the exact game that requires the least cueball movement, the game that would reveal deflection differences the least? Daring claim ;-)

Don’t you use a Revo shaft?

KMRUNOUT


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C

Call_me_Tom

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
OP, my only opinion on this is that you can change a tip out at anytime, whatever shaft you choose you’re stuck with.

If choosing a new shaft, in order of importance, I’d look at deflection, tapper, joint and lastly tip. Tip is last because all other options are permanent.

•Deflection: does your playing style dictate, more, less or something in between.
•Tapper: your bridge will determine what feels comfortable.
•Joint: will the shaft fit your butts.
• Tip: how well does it hold chalk and how long will it last depending on how often you play.
 
ShortBusRuss

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
KMRUNOUT said:
Oh so you mean you can do ok with high deflection in the exact game that requires the least cueball movement, the game that would reveal deflection differences the least? Daring claim ;-)

Don’t you use a Revo shaft?

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
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Point taken.... But, how many AZers habitually run rack in barbox eight ball with a phenolic tip? And playing with that particular combination, not using the Revo.

I bought the Revo because of the energy transfer, not the deflection properties. It may be one and the same, but I simply don't play enough (like most AZers) to intentionally use a lot of english, and have to get used to the deflection, so yeah... I prolly do use more spin when playing more, so I will give you that.

I still say the players I mentioned DO use less english than many think. Specifically, Alex has played more snooker in the past few years, and he has moved more to center axis as I believe his eyesight is slightly weakening, too. Intentionally spinning the ball on cutshots invariably introduces a slight variation on the pocket entry angle, which translates to a slight distance variation as the cue ball speed dies at the end of the CB travel. The common issues with amateurs and under/overrunning position are much more likely to occur when applying spin, not only for the speed pickup, but because of deflecting the CB into a thinner hit.

And to the person that referenced Buddy Hall? We don't have too many matches of him playing world-class on Diamonds. Yes, it is because he is getting older, but.. Getting too far off center axis is simply NOT one's friend on a Diamond table. Buddy Hall and his propensity to spin the ball is irrelevant, given current playing conditions. Diamonds play fast enough that spin is simply not required on shots that it was mandatory on in 1986.
 
Matt_24

Matt_24

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’ve been playing for over 30 years, and I’m not terrible. Just posed this question as food for thought, and it certainly inspired discussion.

Mike Sigel told me years ago good players use English on every shot. Try hitting a long straight in with a tip of inside center and then with a tip of outside center.

Every Shaft has deflection. I’m tip, then taper. If the taper is wonky you can use an open bridge. There are tapers that give power advantages.

Orcullo and Alex aim up with center but follow through with English. The cue ball reaction tells the story of what they used.

For the record, I have a Schon and a Predator cue that I switch back and forth between. Sometimes in one game. I like the Schon more for straight pool.
 
Matt_24

Matt_24

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bob Jewett said:
One way to look at it: Suppose you were spotting your opponent that he could choose one of three cues for you to use on each shot. Suppose those three cues had only one thing different among them. Which would be the worst thing for that difference to be, tip, taper, or squirt?
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For me....tip. I play more center with unfamiliar cues, especially if I’m forced to play with all three as a spot.
 
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Matt_24

Matt_24

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
mikemosconi said:
Here is a unique piece of advice - pick a cue, pick a tip you like to install on that cue- play with that cue every single time and Forget about deflection, etc. - just play man- what do you think the very best do? Worry about thus stuff? Deflection etc. are all inherently adjusted to by the shooter over a course of time using Any cue- the rest is ALL Marketing hype to get you to spend money.
One of the very best players I ever saw in competition used to get out of his car and walk over to the pool hall about 30 minutes before the tournaments started with an old Meucci "in his hands" - no case, no jump or break cue, nothing but an old Meucci broken down into two pieces in his hands- and he took down a lot of JOSS tournaments in the 90s against guys like Ginky, Frankie Hernandez, etc. etc. - Guys make WAY too much about equipment on this site- you should be concerned with so many other aspects of the game His name was Chuck Altomare - He went # 1 in a lot of Joss tour Calcuttas in the 90s when he was playing real well - I saw him carrying that cue on the streets many times.
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I knew a few monsters in Richmond like this. One had a $75 cue and would rob champions.
 
Matt_24

Matt_24

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
dr_dave said:
I use an open bridge, so the taper is of no concern.

Assuming all of the tips in your comparison hold chalk, they are equally good to me since I can very quickly get used to the hit efficiency and "feel"/"hit"/"sound" of any tip; although, I prefer a harder tip for the reasons here: cut tip hardness resource page.

To me, deflection is the most important because if the CB deflection is different than what I am used to, then I need to aim differently when using sidespin.

Regards,
Dave
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I’m a feel player. I like a hard tip for breaking but with my stroke and light touch, a soft tip serves me well. Like you, I’m not as concerned with the taper. I feel you can practice with a new cue for an hour or so and get a feel for its deflection.
 
Matt_24

Matt_24

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BRussell said:
Going on what Dr. Dave and others have stated:

I can believe the tip affects those factors I quoted from your post: How familiar it feels and whether you like it. But does the tip really affect your shot-making as much as deflection?
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Yes. The tip, to me, is 100 times more important. A shaft will only deflect so much. And nobody is using extreme English on every shot. A tip or so off center will not create consequential deflection on any cue.
 
conetip

conetip

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The correct tip for your stroke style is more important than the cue shaft itself. You can take the same cue shaft, change tips, and the cue does play different for different people, just by changing the tip .
Neil
 
G

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I made pretty good money back in the day with sh*^@y house cues that had a decent tip. Tip is waaaaaaaaaaay more important that anything else given the cue is at least relatively straight.
 
ShortBusRuss

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
Patrick Johnson said:
What kinds of stroke styles are there? And what kinds of tips go with which style?

pj
chgo
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There are folks that will draw a ball six inches by using a loose, floppy, slow/soft stroke with a lower tip position, versus those who (correctly) shoot just below center and punch the ball backward with a firm stroke.

Both these strokes might be more effective with different tips.
 
Matt_24

Matt_24

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ShortBusRuss said:
There are folks that will draw a ball six inches by using a loose, floppy, slow/soft stroke with a lower tip position, versus those who (correctly) shoot just below center and punch the ball backward with a firm stroke.

Both these strokes might be more effective with different tips.
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Are you the decider of what techniques, strokes, approaches to the game are correct?
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
ShortBusRuss said:
There are folks that will draw a ball six inches by using a loose, floppy, slow/soft stroke with a lower tip position, versus those who (correctly) shoot just below center and punch the ball backward with a firm stroke.

Both these strokes might be more effective with different tips.
Click to expand...
So maybe a softer tip for the softer player and a harder one for the firmer player...

pj
chgo
 
BRussell

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Matt_24 said:
Yes. The tip, to me, is 100 times more important. A shaft will only deflect so much. And nobody is using extreme English on every shot. A tip or so off center will not create consequential deflection on any cue.
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If you have a long shot, the deflection from a tip of english can cause you to miss the object ball entirely. Can the tip affect your shot that much? One hundred times more? Can you be specific as to how?
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
BRussell said:
If you have a long shot, the deflection from a tip of english can cause you to miss the object ball entirely. Can the tip affect your shot that much? One hundred times more? Can you be specific as to how?
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Using 1/2 of maximum side spin (is that "a tip"?) a typical shaft squirts 1/4" to 1/2" per foot of CB travel. Using maximum spin it's 1/2" to 1" per foot. Minus any swerve.

pj
chgo
 
pt109

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
BRussell said:
If you have a long shot, the deflection from a tip of english can cause you to miss the object ball entirely. Can the tip affect your shot that much? One hundred times more? Can you be specific as to how?
Click to expand...

If I have a shaft that isn’t suitable....I use much more dead ball hits.
I have run a 100 at snooker with a pool cue.
...and I hate the Meucci long pro taper....but I’ve won a tournament with one.

You can go a lot of places using just a fraction off center.
I can probably play 85% of my speed with a cue I don’t like....
...but if I don’t like the tip, I won’t use the cue....
..this may be very subjective...but it’s what I deal with.
 
Matt_24

Matt_24

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BRussell said:
If you have a long shot, the deflection from a tip of english can cause you to miss the object ball entirely. Can the tip affect your shot that much? One hundred times more? Can you be specific as to how?
Click to expand...

I don’t know. On long straight ins I use about a tip of English off center to stop. It’s by trial and error and feel. So, I’m sure I’m subconsciously adjusting my aim. If I try center to center I always miss (for distance). If I were smart enough to describe it,I’d have a website and book. I’m just a dog chasing cars, I wouldn’t know what to do if I caught one.
 
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