Improve Your Play To Pro Level Without Aiming

SpiderWebComm · Apr 5, 2018

Don't look to me for the answer to this because I have no idea how it works. I confess, I AIM!

I've used many different methods over the years with success. If a system or method didn't appeal to me visually or work well at the table, I abandoned it after about 30 minutes or less. Sometimes much less but I tried them all.

I think AZ might need a NON-AIMING FORUM to go along with the AIMING FORUM because there are a good number or guys who live in the aiming forum that don't believe aiming is important. They also knock aiming systems and those who use them even though most pro players use an aiming system of some sort and can explain it.

There's no subject or aspect of the game that causes so many flame wars and hatred as aiming. It makes no sense that NON-AIMERS bother coming into the AIMING FORUM. It's like atheists seeking out Christianity forums to post about the stupidity of religion and God.

Why? That doesn't make any sense either.

To test the waters for how well a NON-AIMING SUB FORUM would do here, this thread is for ALL THE NON-AIMERS.

HOW DO YOU POCKET BALLS WITHOUT AIMING? I really want to know.

What is your process to make the CB impact the OB at just the right place to send it from 0 - 90 degrees accurately into a pocket repeatedly without missing?

You don't know how? You can't explain it? Cat suddenly got your tongue?

Well educated professionals with great writing and language skills who can post thousands of articulate posts about why an aiming system doesn't work or is a bunch of bull should very easily string some paragraphs together regarding how to make balls and run racks without aiming.

PLEASE, NO ATTACKS. Just explain the no aiming method to making balls for non-aimers. Like I stated at the top, I DON'T KNOW HOW because I AIM!
How is not aiming BETTER than aiming?

Who wants to be first out of all the NON-AIMERS?

MattPoland · Apr 5, 2018

It’s similar to the neuroscience behind how a baseball player can hit a 100mph fastball.

SpiderWebComm · Apr 5, 2018

MattPoland said:
It’s similar to the neuroscience behind how a baseball player can hit a 100mph fastball.

No it isn't. Not at all. Not even close. Btw, the average league batting average for all players combined is .255. Is making 25% of the shots on the table what you're looking to do? If it's an improvement, go for it.

Please explain in detail since you're well versed on the neuroscience.

MattPoland · Apr 5, 2018

I don’t mind elaborating but I ask that you try to remain civil.

When people say they don’t aim, what they mean is that they don’t use an “aiming system”. Of course they don’t play blindfolded. They just don’t divide their shaft into guidelines, estimate if a shot is 19 degrees vs. 17 degrees, gauge a shot is half-or-quarter ball, left sweep from B, or any other thought-driven aiming technique.

Most professionals (all?) spent some period of their life playing pool 6-10 hours a day for 6 months to 6 years straight. That repetition builds up neural networks and reinforces them to the degree that they can make quick and accurate cueing decisions from very little information. They can make those decisions without rational thought involved. That is similar to a professional baseball player who has milliseconds to decide whether he’s being thrown a strike or ball. It’s purpose specific processing power amped up through repetition. If you want to call that an aiming system, you’d either call it “automatic aiming”, “shooting by feel” or the “hit a million balls” system. Many professionals use some kind of system (like ghost ball or any of the others) on their way to achieving this ability but no longer need it once they get their feel dialed in.

Now for the rest of us, we have jobs and can’t dedicate 6-10 hours a day. So all the various systems out there are very useful tools to use.

SpiderWebComm · Apr 5, 2018

MattPoland said:
I don’t mind elaborating but I ask that you try to remain civil.

I'm dead serious about proposing a NON-AIMING FORUM for non-aimers so they can be with their own ilk. It will be civil on my part. I can't say it will for others coming in.

When people say they don’t aim, what they mean is that they don’t use an “aiming system”.

Maybe they just don't know what they're doing is actually an existing aiming system. I've seen many guys that way.

Of course they don’t play blindfolded. They just don’t divide their shaft into guidelines, estimate if a shot is 19 degrees vs. 17 degrees,

I use aiming systems but don't know one angle from another nor ever think in those terms.

gauge a shot is half-or-quarter ball, left sweep from B, or any other thought-driven aiming technique.

What about contact points? If they don't use anything, what do they do? THAT is what I'm after. YOU TELL ME.

Most professionals (all?) spent some period of their life playing pool 6-10 hours a day for 6 months to 6 years straight. That repetition builds up neural networks and reinforces them to the degree that they can make quick and accurate cueing decisions from very little information.

So are you saying no pro player ever got instructions from better players, other pros, or teaching pros? Did they just reinvent the wheel on their own?

They can make those decisions without rational thought involved. That is similar to a professional baseball player who has milliseconds to decide whether he’s being thrown a strike or ball. It’s purpose specific processing power amped up through repetition.

As I stated in my other post to you, the AVERAGE LEAGUE BATTING AVERAGE for all players is .255. Is that an excellent average for ball pocketing in pool? If you or I went up against a MLB pitcher our batting average would be .000 for 500 pitches thrown.

If you want to call that an aiming system, you’d either call it “automatic aiming”, “shooting by feel” or the “hit a million balls” system. Many professionals use some kind of system (like ghost ball or any of the others) on their way to achieving this ability but no longer need it once they get their feel dialed in.

Not true again, Matt. They do use aiming systems and have said what they use and can explain it.

Now for the rest of us, we have jobs and can’t dedicate 6-10 hours a day. So all the various systems out there are very useful tools to use.

What does that mean, you DO USE an aiming system or you DON'T? If you DON'T, please explain what you see and do to make balls.

BC21 · Apr 5, 2018

I believe every player aims. Some aim at a point in the distance (like ghostball center, or contact point, or fractional aim point, etc...), a few line the shot up using multiple visuals based on specific distant points then take final aim at center cue ball. And believe it or not, some actual just aim to put the CB where it needs to be based on what looks right according to their brain, their gathered knowledge of shots, which to the brain is nothing more than images.

Each image is stored, along with all other aspects of the shot, like the actual feel/touch associated with the particular shot and the resulting path of the cb and ob immediately following the shot. These can be called tags, or handles, which the brain encodes into the memory of the shot. Experience creates a subconscious warehouse of shots, each with their own unique handles. The view of a shot is a handle, and when the eyes send images to the brain, the brain quickly finds the matching handle and pulls that shot from the warehouse. Along with it comes all other aspects of the shot (speed, spin, feel/touch), all based on what your conscious thought is asking for.

When a player steps up to the table and takes in the positional relationship between the cb, the ob, and the pocket, these images and all pertinent data relating to the shot get to the brain. The brain searches the subconscious memory for the nearest match, based on handles it was given for the current shot, and then you automatically know how to shoot it. If there is no shot encoded into memory with the specific handles given, then you are forced to consciously determine how to play the shot.

This conscious effort will be sent to the brain and encoded for storage, along with the results. If enough handles are included then it becomes a more stable memory. Unfortunately, results aren't always positive, which means missed/bad shots get stored in the warehouse along with good shots. So that's why it's important to pay attention to results during practice and play. Then you can repeat the shot enough times to encode it as a positive memory. This is the learning process.

Your brain is storing memories everyday. The more handles or triggers attached to the memory the more solid it is and the easier it is to be recalled when one of those handles or triggers gets pulled. If you're facing a particular stressful shot and feel like your pounding heart is gonna break through your ribs, it's normal. Unless you've faced this situation enough times to create a tension-free handle for the memory, your brain is simply going to pull what you've got in the warehouse for this particular shot under this particular situation.

During practice or fun there is no stress handle encoded into the shot. During pressure times there is, and if you consciously feel the pressure then your brain is getting the instruction to pull that aspect of the stored shot into play. The best way to erase that aspect is to put yourself in this situation more often, breathe in and out slowly, tamp down the nerves as best you can, and your brain will eventually drop that bad handle.

Aiming system or not, this is pretty much how the brain automatically gets you shooting balls.

SpiderWebComm · Apr 5, 2018

BC21 said:
I believe every player aims. Some aim at a point in the distance (like ghostball center, or contact point, or fractional aim point, etc...), a few line the shot up using multiple visuals based on specific distant points then take final aim at center cue ball.

If EVERY PLAYER aims, they're USING A KNOWN AIMING SYSTEM.

And believe it or not, some actual just aim to put the CB where it needs to be based on what looks right according to their brain, their gathered knowledge of shots, which to the brain is nothing more than images.

So now we're back to guessing. If you're going to say it's not guessing, what makes it more accurate than visually aiming with any of the above as a fail safe method for accuracy? It doesn't take about a second or two.

Each image is stored, along with all other aspects of the shot, like the actual feel/touch associated with the particular shot and the resulting path of the cb and ob immediately following the shot. These can be called tags, or handles, which the brain encodes into the memory of the shot. Experience creates a subconscious warehouse of shots, each with their own unique handles. The view of a shot is a handle, and when the eyes send images to the brain, the brain quickly finds the matching handle and pulls that shot from the warehouse. Along with it comes all other aspects of the shot (speed, spin, feel/touch), all based on what your conscious thought is asking for.

When a player steps up to the table and takes in the positional relationship between the cb, the ob, and the pocket, these images and all pertinent data relating to the shot get to the brain. The brain searches the subconscious memory for the nearest match, based on handles it was given for the current shot, and then you automatically know how to shoot it. If there is no shot encoded into memory with the specific handles given, then you are forced to consciously determine how to play the shot.

This conscious effort will be sent to the brain and encoded for storage, along with the results. If enough handles are included then it becomes a more stable memory. Unfortunately, results aren't always positive, which means missed/bad shots get stored in the warehouse along with good shots. So that's why it's important to pay attention to results during practice and play. Then you can repeat the shot enough times to encode it as a positive memory. This is the learning process.

Your brain is storing memories everyday. The more handles or triggers attached to the memory the more solid it is and the easier it is to be recalled when one of those handles or triggers gets pulled. If you're facing a particular stressful shot and feel like your pounding heart is gonna break through your ribs, it's normal. Unless you've faced this situation enough times to create a tension-free handle for the memory, your brain is simply going to pull what you've got in the warehouse for this particular shot under this particular situation.

During practice or fun there is no stress handle encoded into the shot. During pressure times there is, and if you consciously feel the pressure then your brain is getting the instruction to pull that aspect of the stored shot into play. The best way to erase that aspect is to put yourself in this situation more often, breathe in and out slowly, tamp down the nerves as best you can, and your brain will eventually drop that bad handle.

Aiming system or not, this is pretty much how the brain automatically gets you shooting balls.

I knew you'd be in here but I expected something, anything of value. But unfortunately it's your same psycho babble as usual.

It has NOTHING to do with specifics of how a non-aimer aims. YOU BELONG IN A NON-AIMING FORUM.

Actually, I think YOU should head it up as the head honcho instructor and moderator.
I have no idea what you'll instruct or what players can learn but I'm sure you'll do fine and be ecstatic as you pontificate all of it.

Kind of like what Fast Larry did in his own pool forum.

MattPoland · Apr 5, 2018

SpiderWebComm said:
What does that mean, you DO USE an aiming system or you DON'T? If you DON'T, please explain what you see and do to make balls.

I am not a professional pool player so I don’t play at that level. I’ve never put in that kind of time. But I have watched just about every instructional DVD available, read many articles written by professionals, and talked to a few. That doesn’t make me an expert and I don’t pretend to be, but I’m also not making any of this up.

Me personally, I do use aiming systems. I like lining the edge of my shaft to the OB contact point for shallow angles and I use a version of double-the-distance for wide angles. But I can be a rhythm player. If I’m shooting often and for long stretches, I can catch a gear. I notice I rush a little in that mode and I’m jumping from shot to shot knowing the contact points are lined up. Visually it looks like “these balls are aligned to go”. It’s hard to explain through words a process that doesn’t involve words in your head. The risk in that mode is that a shot can look good and miss because I didn’t realize it was a problem shot for me. But I could go back and drill on that shot. I’d be surprised how many times I do miss it. Keep drilling on it. And turn that shot into a strength and the next time I catch a gear and it comes up, it won’t let me down.

lfigueroa · Apr 5, 2018

When I approach the table I'm not thinking of how I'm going to make or aim for the OB.

I'm think about what position I'll play for and what angle the CB is going to come off the OB, cushions, or other OBs. I'm also thinking about what speed and spin I need on the CB for position and how that may affect the OB. Lastly, I'm checking the hit on the CB.

I guess I'm composing the shot as a whole construct, based upon the OB traveling to the pocket. For me, executing a shot is more like taking a photograph of the entire shot rather than of just a point on the OB. There's no aiming at a contact point or ghost ball or use of whatever other system you'd care to name. I just pull the trigger when the whole thing looks right.

Lou Figueroa
it's too early for
all of that on
just one cup of espresso
(whew)

SpiderWebComm · Apr 5, 2018

MattPoland said:
I am not a professional pool player so I don’t play at that level. I’ve never put in that kind of time. But I have watched just about every instructional DVD available, read many articles written by professionals, and talked to a few. That doesn’t make me an expert and I don’t pretend to be, but I’m also not making any of this up.

Me personally, I do use aiming systems. I like lining the edge of my shaft to the OB contact point for shallow angles and I use a version of double-the-distance for wide angles. But I can be a rhythm player. If I’m shooting often and for long stretches, I can catch a gear. I notice I rush a little in that mode and I’m jumping from shot to shot knowing the contact points are lined up. Visually it looks like “these balls are aligned to go”. It’s hard to explain through words a process that doesn’t involve words in your head. The risk in that mode is that a shot can look good and miss because I didn’t realize it was a problem shot for me. But I could go back and drill on that shot. I’d be surprised how many times I do miss it. Keep drilling on it. And turn that shot into a strength and the next time I catch a gear and it comes up, it won’t let me down.

I appreciate what you posted. There's nothing about an aiming system, any of them, that will hinder being a rhythm player. In fact, I think it promotes getting into a rhythm because you're doing the same thing over and over very quickly and with purpose.

I think you have more to offer the AIMING FORUM as opposed to the NON-AIMING FORUM.

BC21 · Apr 5, 2018

SpiderWebComm said:
I knew you'd be in here but I expected something, anything of value. But unfortunately it's your same psycho babble as usual.

It has NOTHING to do with specifics of how a non-aimer aims. YOU BELONG IN A NON-AIMING FORUM.

Actually, I think YOU should head it up as the head honcho instructor and moderator.
I have no idea what you'll instruct or what players can learn but I'm sure you'll do fine and be ecstatic as you pontificate all of it.

Kind of like what Fast Larry did in his own pool forum.

So you really don't want an answer. Judging by your responses so far, you only wanted an invitation to ridicule people with your aggressive derogatory tactics simply because they don't agree with you. :thumbup:

SpiderWebComm · Apr 5, 2018

lfigueroa said:
When I approach the table I'm not thinking of how I'm going to make or aim for the OB.

I'm think about what position I'll play for and what angle the CB is going to come off the OB, cushions, or other OBs. I'm also thinking about what speed and spin I need on the CB for position and how that may affect the OB. Lastly, I'm checking the hit on the CB.

Now this is getting scary. TWICE in one day I agree completely with you! What you posted is exactly what I do and what is going on in my head.

I guess I'm composing the shot as a whole construct, based upon the OB traveling to the pocket. For me, executing a shot is more like taking a photograph of the entire shot rather than of just a point on the OB. There's no aiming at a contact point or ghost ball or use of whatever other system you'd care to name. I just pull the trigger when the WHOLE THING looks right.

Here's where clarification would help. WHAT is the WHOLE THING? A picture of the two balls at the point of collision that would send it to the pocket or something else?

Lou Figueroa
it's too early for
all of that on
just one cup of espresso
(whew)

Well, here's where we differ. I used to look at a point on the OB (contact point) but no longer do it that way. I pull the trigger when I KNOW it's right based on how and where the CB is aligned with edges to the OB. When I align it correctly I know it's right and it will look right.

SpiderWebComm · Apr 5, 2018

BC21 said:
So you really don't want an answer. Judging by your responses so far, you only wanted an invitation to ridicule people with your aggressive derogatory tactics simply because they don't agree with you. :thumbup:

Cut the crap or stay out if you think that way. If you have a specific answer on alignment or aiming instead of inner workings of the brain mumbo jumbo, fine.

Do your own specific thread on the conscious, subconscious, or unconscious functions of the brain and how it applies to pool.

garczar · Apr 5, 2018

SpiderWebComm said:
Well, here's where we differ. I used to look at a point on the OB (contact point) but no longer do it that way. I pull the trigger when I KNOW it's right based on how and where the CB is aligned with edges to the OB. When I align it correctly I know it's right and it will look right.

Good for you. Are you this combative about everything or do you just save it all up for your forays onto AZ? You aren't a divorce lawyer, are you?

MattPoland · Apr 5, 2018

garczar said:
Good for you. Are you this combative about everything or do you just save it all up for your forays onto AZ? You aren't a divorce lawyer, are you?

I think he approached this thread with the premise of a joke in mind and he’s keeping his responses in character. I think the premise of the topic is literally not aiming at all and not to be confused with any form of aiming whatsoever (conscious or subconscious).

SpiderWebComm · Apr 5, 2018

garczar said:
Good for you. Are you this combative about everything or do you just save it all up for your forays onto AZ? You aren't a divorce lawyer, are you?

The only person on here who seems to be combative is you for attacking me as combative.

For the most part it's been quite civil.

Do you currently need a divorce lawyer or have you already gone through a few?

Last but not least, is there anything you have to contribute to the thread itself?

garczar · Apr 5, 2018

MattPoland said:
I think he approached this thread with the premise of a joke in mind and he’s keeping his responses in character. I think the premise of the topic is literally not aiming at all and not to be confused with any form of aiming whatsoever (conscious or subconscious).

Have you read many of his aiming takes?

SpiderWebComm · Apr 5, 2018

MattPoland said:
I think he approached this thread with the premise of a joke in mind and he’s keeping his responses in character. I think the premise of the topic is literally not aiming at all and not to be confused with any form of aiming whatsoever (conscious or subconscious).

This is totally uncalled for. It's not a joke. There are aimers on here and so called non-aimers. This is an AIMING FORUM where the non-aimers like to come in and blast aimers for the method of aiming they use. It's been going on for decades and extremely ugly.

I do think non aimers or those who claim to play with no aiming system should have their own forum. Separate the two for peace and quiet.

SpiderWebComm · Apr 5, 2018

garczar said:
Have you read many of his aiming takes?

Do you have something, anything to contribute to aiming? I'm open.

BilliardsAbout · Apr 5, 2018

SpiderWebComm said:
Don't look to me for the answer to this because I have no idea how it works. I confess, I AIM!

I've used many different methods over the years with success. If a system or method didn't appeal to me visually or work well at the table, I abandoned it after about 30 minutes or less. Sometimes much less but I tried them all.

I think AZ might need a NON-AIMING FORUM to go along with the AIMING FORUM because there are a good number or guys who live in the aiming forum that don't believe aiming is important. They also knock aiming systems and those who use them even though most pro players use an aiming system of some sort and can explain it.

There's no subject or aspect of the game that causes so many flame wars and hatred as aiming. It makes no sense that NON-AIMERS bother coming into the AIMING FORUM. It's like atheists seeking out Christianity forums to post about the stupidity of religion and God.

Why? That doesn't make any sense either.

To test the waters for how well a NON-AIMING SUB FORUM would do here, this thread is for ALL THE NON-AIMERS.

HOW DO YOU POCKET BALLS WITHOUT AIMING? I really want to know.

What is your process to make the CB impact the OB at just the right place to send it from 0 - 90 degrees accurately into a pocket repeatedly without missing?

You don't know how? You can't explain it? Cat suddenly got your tongue?

Well educated professionals with great writing and language skills who can post thousands of articulate posts about why an aiming system doesn't work or is a bunch of bull should very easily string some paragraphs together regarding how to make balls and run racks without aiming.

PLEASE, NO ATTACKS. Just explain the no aiming method to making balls for non-aimers. Like I stated at the top, I DON'T KNOW HOW because I AIM!
How is not aiming BETTER than aiming?

Who wants to be first out of all the NON-AIMERS?

Spider, I love your passion for this! You rock! Seriously.

You are correct about non-aimers and atheists, too. LOL. Putting non-aimers in a subforum would kill them off in a week because the "threads" would all read the same thing, "just aim but don't really aim", yawn...

The non-aimers preach here because they don't care about others enough to think about their own headspace and to decipher their aim SYSTEM. And why should they? They run racks, so why should they work at anything?

But guys like us get as excited about a friend learning aim from us as when WE use a system to rock it!

However, I totally understand the non-aimers. I do. If they were honest, their system could be like this one:

1. They stand behind the shortest line between ob and cb

2. They come down pretty close on that line, pretty thick on the ob

3. If their cue stick is aimed well on the cb aim point, they're pretty good already (the rock in control, the hit shall be fine)

4. They trust their subconscious to help them stroke the cb to contact the ob correctly, and they enhance this by eyeing the ob and the pocket the way they need to, carefully, after the last practice stroke, before the final stroke, as their checkoff point

If something like that isn't an aim system, I don't know what is, because a lot of my pro buddies do those 4 steps already, and this system works for them... WELL.

Praise the Lord and pass the non-aimers!

PS. I love you, non-aiming friends, but you've got to lighten up, most pros "non-aim" like you but you've got to let the APA 3s get to APA 7s by using SYSTEMS. Please accept that not everyone is as talented and gifted as you (at pool if not forum posting). :wink:

Blessings, all!

Please don't hate me or Spider for truth telling, but I've had it. Non-aimers lurk or leave, we aim systems people fight enough already!

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