Cue Lost - USPS Shipping - Who's Responsible??

I ship usps priority mail, with tracking, with insurance and with signature on delivery. I have had people ask me not ship with a signature on delivery, sorry, no dice, Sure, I want to be protected, but as important, I want to protect my buyer.

mikemosconi said:

....snip...Covid should have nothing to do with handling a package or delivering it to someone's home-

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It does and it will when humans are involved with the whole chain of getting the package from A to B. My sister works at USPS, they are scared to go knock on someone's door and deliver their package. When she told me they stopped they requirement for signing for a package, she was super relieved. All these workers are humans, and they have their own health to watch out for, above and beyond our packages.

Hungarian said:

...snip...
Also, compounding the situation is that I did file a USPS claim and one poster stated that since I did that USPS won't deliver the cue even if they find it.
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Are you certain of this? I still think it will show up at the buyer's door.

Hungarian said:

Question though, do you accept PayPal? And if so how do you overcome the point made by some of the posters in this thread that if the buyer files a PP claim on a purchase and subsequent lost shipment that PP will simply turn around and charge me as the seller? In my situation the buyer said don't worry about extra insurance.

I'm really trying to fully understand PP and how they behave. I actually thought their fee was essentially insurance.

Is it their position that the shipper (being me) is negligent if they don't purchase insurance from the shipping company? Some of the posts in this thread are not making sense to me. I just don't have a full understanding on how PP works.

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I think the simple answer is the buyer did not receive the item he paid for. It is still technically yours until it reaches the destination. I think they would say since you purchased the insurance and you are the one who would collect the money if a claim is filed for a lost item, then it is up to you to do so.

Paypal goods is more protection against fraud than anything else. Whether it be item is never shipped or not as described. It protects the buyer but doesn't do much for the seller. I filed a claim once. They asked me for my side of the story and then gave seller a period of time to respond. He did so and I had my money back in less than 30 minutes.

My personal feeling on insurance is almost all insurance is a scam. Or in other words, the insurance companies make out way better than the insured.

At my day job where we shipped fedex, I personally probably shipped 300 packages, all over the world, in my 15 years at that company. Never had a single package lost. I also never once bought insurance. These were prototype items, that cost thousands of dollars to make if you count the design time and then the build time and build costs. But its worth zero to anyone else. There is no point in insuring it, because if its lost, you just have to make another one or just forget it. No money at that point would make any difference.

Lets say a cue maker, he sells a cue for 700. Maybe if you count his time and materials, he has 400 in that cue, leaving a 300 profit. If he buys insurance valued at 700, what does that cost? $25? (I'm guessing). That eats into his $300 profit by 8%. Who in their right mind would give away 8% of their profit on freaking shipping insurance?! If you are a cuemaker A and ship 50 cues per year, and you never insure any of them; Vs Cuemaker B who ships 50 per year and insures every one of them for sold value, who would come out ahead? How many cues does A have to have lost in shipment for B to come ahead? I bet if a business did this analysis, they would never buy insurance.

IMO

The whole thing with PayPal "refunds/buyer protection" (IMO), is to instill confidence in buying across the internet, which was uncharted territory years back. It gave the buyer confidence to buy on ebay from a total stranger that is not a professional brick and mortar store, but rather an average Joe. I believe this PayPal buyer protection is one reason online commerce exploded. It enabled people to trust the system to protect them, even if they didn't know the seller enough to trust the seller.

Shipping insurance on the other hand is a scam IMO. No one makes money off of it except the insurance company.

no matter what the buyers says you as the seller are responsible on getting the product in good shape to him. and you shouldnt even discuss how you intend to ship it. unless its to a business which receives lots of packages a certain way.. to any individual you take all the risk. so insure for the price of the sale.

if the buyer wants it cheaper without spending 10 bucks for insurance tell him to send you the full price in cash then you will send it as he pleases.

USPS does deliever lost mail. When they closed Fort Ord in Montery CA. A letter that was mailed to a Soldier Girl Friend by her Boyfriend before shipping out to war. Was found stuck in one of the USPS Mail Boxes on post/base. Letter was deliever as addressed. Funny thing is the girlfriend was now wife of soldier. They were living in her parents home. Where letter was addressed to ........ Surprise.

Good story about lost mail, mail being finally delivered, 40 years after it was mailed.

Hungarian said:

Question for the forum.

I'm trying to understand the best way I should handle a situation for a buyer where a cue was lost in shipping by USPS.


Background:

I sold an relatively inexpensive cue for $190 and it was lost by USPS by no fault of me or the buyer.

Purchase was made via PayPal including the normal fees (not friends and family)

I shipped it Priority 3-day, signature required and did not purchase additional insurance at the buyers direction.

I filed a claim with USPS and was paid the $50 plus the cost of shipping.

Now the buyer is out $190 and more than likely will not receive the cue.

If the buyer files a claim with PayPal does PayPal cover his loss?

Does PayPal take the money from me?

Should I refund the buyer his money?

I'm just not sure how this should work.

Any input is appreciated..

Thanks

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I worked for the USPS and any time that I ship a cue I send it UPS or FED X . IMHO the person did not receive the cue but that’s not his fault and the honorable thing to do would be to refund his money. Now comes the sticky part of did you put on the package that someone has to sign for it package ? Not saying he is not being truthful but on the flip side if you do refund his money and miraculously the cue comes out of hiding and he receives it do you believe he will let you know. Before refunds are considered go to the post office that you sent the package with your stub and talk to the post master of that station. Nuff said and good luck, lesson learned.

John R said:

I worked for the USPS and any time that I ship a cue I send it UPS or FED X . IMHO the person did not receive the cue but that’s not his fault and the honorable thing to do would be to refund his money. Now comes the sticky part of did you put on the package that someone has to sign for it package ? Not saying he is not being truthful but on the flip side if you do refund his money and miraculously the cue comes out of hiding and he receives it do you believe he will let you know. Before refunds are considered go to the post office that you sent the package with your stub and talk to the post master of that station. Nuff said and good luck, lesson learned.

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This is one of the reasons I bought collectibles insurance. My policy insures every thing I ship or purchase regardless of value as long as I ship with a "major" carrier that IS NOT USPS.... They must have some knowledge as to why.....
As for this situation, normally it's the seller's resposibility to make sure the item gets to the buyer but when the buyer asked the seller to not pay for insurance, cheapening their cost, imho they've now turned the resposibility back on themselves. Problem is, in the court of public opinion, the righteous often get raked....

Hungarian said:

Question for the forum.

I'm trying to understand the best way I should handle a situation for a buyer where a cue was lost in shipping by USPS.


Background:

I sold an relatively inexpensive cue for $190 and it was lost by USPS by no fault of me or the buyer.

Purchase was made via PayPal including the normal fees (not friends and family)

I shipped it Priority 3-day, signature required and did not purchase additional insurance at the buyers direction.

I filed a claim with USPS and was paid the $50 plus the cost of shipping.

Now the buyer is out $190 and more than likely will not receive the cue.

If the buyer files a claim with PayPal does PayPal cover his loss?

Does PayPal take the money from me?

Should I refund the buyer his money?

I'm just not sure how this should work.

Any input is appreciated..

Thanks

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The buyer in a world where people take responsibility .. People like me. Unfortunately on this forum Full of liberals it’s your fault and they will say you should refund the person’s money. I’ve seen this in past discussions . DON’T! You offered insurance. buyer turned it down. He took the risk.. he can accept the consequences of his decision.

Edit to add before the nits say as the seller he should provide it and that‘s fine if that’s what you believe. Then don’t buy a cue from him. It’s that simple. You have a choice as an adult.. you cheaped out and made a bad one. It’s on the buyer.

trob said:

The buyer in a world where people take responsibility .. People like me. Unfortunately on this forum Full of liberals it’s your fault and they will say you should refund the person’s money. I’ve seen this in past discussions . DON’T! You offered insurance. buyer turned it down. He took the risk.. he can accept the consequences of his decision.

Edit to add before the nits say as the seller he should provide it and that‘s fine if that’s what you believe. Then don’t buy a cue from him. It’s that simple. You have a choice as an adult.. you cheaped out and made a bad one. It’s on the buyer.

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This happened 6 months ago. I hope nobody involved is still trying to figure out a $200 problem.

I would never accept direction from a buyer to skip insurance unless we hit the pause button and spelled it out in writing. For all we know the buyer was thinking "why would I buy insurance, the seller is the one who has to get it to me safely", I wouldn't just assume a biyer understands the transfer of liability that comes with that decision. This thread demonstrates that people have different concepts of personal responsibility.

I have sold tens of thousands of dollars of stuff on ebay, through forums and other ways over the last 25 or so years. I buy insurance if the item is worth more than I am willing to just write off. A $200 cue to me is below that and I would not have insured...or more accurately, I would self insure. Priority Mail and even basic USPS has some level of tracking so while you can never be sure, if the buyer says it didn’t arrive and USPS can't confirm it did that would be quite the unlikely cooincidence if it actually arrived.

I'd have sent the refund a week or so after it didn’t show up, made peace with it knowing I had saved way more by not insuring 100 prior low value shipments, and not sure I'd even bother with the USPS $50 claim.

As the seller, I include the cost of insurance in what I am willing to take including shipping. I don't leave that decision up to the buyer or even ever discuss it. A buyer has no control over how something is packed and shipped and can't file a claim for a shipment that he didn't make. A seller needs to think like a business. No business would ever leave insurance decisions up to the buyer.

Sent from the future.

logical said:

This happened 6 months ago. I hope nobody involved is still trying to figure out a $200 problem.

I would never accept direction from a buyer to skip insurance unless we hit the pause button and spelled it out in writing. For all we know the buyer was thinking "why would I buy insurance, the seller is the one who has to get it to me safely", I wouldn't just assume a biyer understands the transfer of liability that comes with that decision. This thread demonstrates that people have different concepts of personal responsibility.

I have sold tens of thousands of dollars of stuff on ebay, through forums and other ways over the last 25 or so years. I buy insurance if the item is worth more than I am willing to just write off. A $200 cue to me is below that and I would not have insured...or more accurately, I would self insure. Priority Mail and even basic USPS has some level of tracking so while you can never be sure, if the buyer says it didn’t arrive and USPS can't confirm it did that would be quite the unlikely cooincidence if it actually arrived.

I'd have sent the refund a week or so after it didn’t show up, made peace with it knowing I had saved way more by not insuring 100 prior low value shipments, and not sure I'd even bother with the USPS $50 claim.

Sent from the future.

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Then that’s good for you and honestly when I‘ve sent cues and I give shipping costs I add that in And never had a problem But it just annoys me in this world that an adult makes a decision he wasn’t paying for it and now it’s the sellers fault. No one wants to be accountable for their decisions any more.

logical said:

This happened 6 months ago. I hope nobody involved is still trying to figure out a $200 problem.

I would never accept direction from a buyer to skip insurance unless we hit the pause button and spelled it out in writing. For all we know the buyer was thinking "why would I buy insurance, the seller is the one who has to get it to me safely", I wouldn't just assume a biyer understands the transfer of liability that comes with that decision. This thread demonstrates that people have different concepts of personal responsibility.

I have sold tens of thousands of dollars of stuff on ebay, through forums and other ways over the last 25 or so years. I buy insurance if the item is worth more than I am willing to just write off. A $200 cue to me is below that and I would not have insured...or more accurately, I would self insure. Priority Mail and even basic USPS has some level of tracking so while you can never be sure, if the buyer says it didn’t arrive and USPS can't confirm it did that would be quite the unlikely cooincidence if it actually arrived.

I'd have sent the refund a week or so after it didn’t show up, made peace with it knowing I had saved way more by not insuring 100 prior low value shipments, and not sure I'd even bother with the USPS $50 claim.

As the seller, I include the cost of insurance in what I am willing to take including shipping. I don't leave that decision up to the buyer or even ever discuss it. A buyer has no control over how something is packed and shipped and can't file a claim for a shipment that he didn't make. A seller needs to think like a business. No business would ever leave insurance decisions up to the buyer.

Sent from the future.

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Really? Airline industry and the Cruise ship industry certainly do. If insurance was discussed and the buyer turned it down its on him. If it wasnt discussed its on the seller. IMHO

trob said:

Then that’s good for you and honestly when I‘ve sent cues and I give shipping costs I add that in And never had a problem But it just annoys me in this world that an adult makes a decision he wasn’t paying for it and now it’s the sellers fault. No one wants to be accountable for their decisions any more.

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Ahaha, you're going to have an incredibly hard time in life.

In this scenario, if you are the seller, you are responsible for the safe delivery of the item. Regardless of whether the buyer chooses insurance, UNLESS you have a signed agreement where the buyer assumed all risk of shipping.

In this scenario, you would need to accept responsibility for your decision not to insure