AzBilliards.com How to Use the Masse' Shot to Curve Around Obstructing Balls
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(#46)
number13cfan
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03-06-2015, 09:07 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Mikjary CJ, Are you using a specific aiming method that sends the cue ball to its intended target? Or are you aligning to get your result by calculating the deflection of the cue ball with your tip placement? When I first started to learn to shoot masse' shots, I was more attuned to the deflection of the cue ball with different speeds to hit my target. With experience, I learned to not only control the speed, but stroke, also. With practice, I developed my own method of aiming and not just aligning and relying on deflection and speed. I learned to vary the results for different occasions, including a slightly curving jump shot. Best, Mike
Mike; can you post a video to show and explain, 'your method' involving masse shots.

I posted this video from of a gentleman from Spain that explains the, 'Physics' of the masse shot in detail!

Last edited by number13cfan; 03-06-2015 at 10:02 AM.

(#47)
Hungarian
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03-06-2015, 09:11 AM

Sounds good to give you a reference point to work and measure against..

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson Coriolis, the French mathematician, described this masse aiming technique. The essential principle is to elevate the cue until your tip points down through the CB at an imaginary line on the table drawn from the CB's base forward and parallel to the path you want the CB to take after curving. The "compass" direction you point the cue determines the CB's initial direction. How hard you hit the CB determines how far it goes in that initial direction before completing the curve onto the parallel path. It's the best masse aiming technique I know, it's very accurate with some practice, and it works on all masse shots from small shallow curves to 180-degree "turnaround" curves. pj chgo

(#48)
Neil
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03-06-2015, 09:45 AM

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 Originally Posted by Hungarian I've only looked at the original post and I predict that the haters are going to loose their minds with this post.
Proof positive that you judge without even reading. You place no merit in what is said, only by who said it and you place people in different "camps" without even reading what they say. Then, you label them as "haters" to suit your agenda.

But, you never try and stir up anything on here, do you?

(#49)
Hungarian
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03-06-2015, 10:16 AM

I've read enough of your stuff to have formed my final decision.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Neil Proof positive that you judge without even reading. You place no merit in what is said, only by who said it and you place people in different "camps" without even reading what they say. Then, you label them as "haters" to suit your agenda. But, you never try and stir up anything on here, do you?

 Coiling the shoulder is vitally important to hitting the masse' shot accurately
(#50)
CJ Wiley
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Coiling the shoulder is vitally important to hitting the masse' shot accurately - 03-06-2015, 10:31 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Mikjary CJ, Are you using a specific aiming method that sends the cue ball to its intended target? Or are you aligning to get your result by calculating the deflection of the cue ball with your tip placement? When I first started to learn to shoot masse' shots, I was more attuned to the deflection of the cue ball with different speeds to hit my target. With experience, I learned to not only control the speed, but stroke, also. With practice, I developed my own method of aiming and not just aligning and relying on deflection and speed. I learned to vary the results for different occasions, including a slightly curving jump shot. Best, Mike
When a player knows how to coil the shoulder correctly it won't matter how high they have to elevate their cue, This means they can "aim" the shot through precise alignment. Then, of course, you have to practice the acceleration at the moment of contact, which, ironically, is the same as any other shot.....if they fundamentals are correct, so that the shoulder, arm, wrist, and hand is connected to the tip through the cue stick (the hips are connected too)......how many players do this correctly?

Very few....very few indeed.

Efren is the one that I saw use this technique when performing the masse' shot. I simply modeled it and learned it in a matter of ten minutes....ONLY because my shoulder motion is correct, if this wasn't the case I could not learn it so quickly.

Coiling the shoulder is vitally important to hitting the masse' shot accurately. imho

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(#51)
Patrick Johnson
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03-06-2015, 11:32 AM

Quote:
Quote:
 Mike's question: CJ, Are you using a specific aiming method that sends the cue ball to its intended target? Or are you aligning to get your result by calculating the deflection of the cue ball with your tip placement?
When a player knows how to coil the shoulder correctly it won't matter how high they have to elevate their cue, This means they can "aim" the shot through precise alignment. Then, of course, you have to practice the acceleration at the moment of contact, which, ironically, is the same as any other shot.....if they fundamentals are correct, so that the shoulder, arm, wrist, and hand is connected to the tip through the cue stick (the hips are connected too)......how many players do this correctly?

Very few....very few indeed.

Efren is the one that I saw use this technique when performing the masse' shot. I simply modeled it and learned it in a matter of ten minutes....ONLY because my shoulder motion is correct, if this wasn't the case I could not learn it so quickly.

Coiling the shoulder is vitally important to hitting the masse' shot accurately. imho
I was kinda interested in the answer to Mike's question, but I don't see it here. Maybe I just don't speak TOI...?

pj
chgo

 (#52) number13cfan Banned   Status: Offline Posts: 243 vCash: 500 iTrader: 3 / 100% Join Date: Dec 2013 03-06-2015, 11:46 AM With practice, I developed my own method of aiming and not just aligning and relying on deflection and speed. I learned to vary the results for different occasions, including a slightly curving jump shot. Best, Mike Mike; can you post a video to show and explain, 'your method' involving masse shots. I posted this video from of a gentleman from Spain that explains the, 'Physics' of the masse shot in detail! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB8nWQdiQes I'd like to get an answer to my question, I speak English fairly well!
 (#53) DTL SP 219     Status: Offline Posts: 1,256 vCash: 500 iTrader: 0 / 0% Join Date: Jun 2003 03-06-2015, 11:52 AM ..................... Attached Images    Last edited by DTL; 03-15-2016 at 05:45 AM.
(#54)
Mikjary
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03-06-2015, 12:02 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by number13cfan With practice, I developed my own method of aiming and not just aligning and relying on deflection and speed. I learned to vary the results for different occasions, including a slightly curving jump shot. Best, Mike Mike; can you post a video to show and explain, 'your method' involving masse shots. I posted this video from of a gentleman from Spain that explains the, 'Physics' of the masse shot in detail! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB8nWQdiQes I'd like to get an answer to my question, I speak English fairly well!
I've been looking around trying to find part 2 of the video. The first part was a well done technical examination of the masse' physical components. I'm sure his part two would be quite a bit better than my system. I'm a hack compared to Mr. Trilles, as I'm sure 99% of all others are, too.

The guy has the masse' down to a basic stroke and uses it at a world class level. If I practice for years and get that good, you'll get a video. One tip I have is, don't hold your breath. J/K Thanks for the link. Is there a part 2? I'd like to see it.

And yes... Your English is better than my English and I was born in America.

Best,
Mike

Last edited by Mikjary; 03-06-2015 at 12:05 PM.

(#55)
number13cfan
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03-06-2015, 12:32 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Mikjary I've been looking around trying to find part 2 of the video. The first part was a well done technical examination of the masse' physical components. I'm sure his part two would be quite a bit better than my system. I'm a hack compared to Mr. Trilles, as I'm sure 99% of all others are, too. The guy has the masse' down to a basic stroke and uses it at a world class level. If I practice for years and get that good, you'll get a video. One tip I have is, don't hold your breath. J/K Thanks for the link. Is there a part 2? I'd like to see it. And yes... Your English is better than my English and I was born in America. Best, Mike
Mike; I have not yet been able to find, (part 2) of this instruction. When I do, I'll post for all to view!

BTW, I, also was born here!

 Coiling in sports/games is no great mystery
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CJ Wiley
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Coiling in sports/games is no great mystery - 03-06-2015, 01:59 PM

[QUOTE]
Quote:
 Originally Posted by DTL The shoulder is a unique joint. Unlike many of the other joints in out bodies, the shoulder can move many different ways. It can flex, extend, abduct, adduct, internally rotate, externally rotate, and swing in a circular motion (a combination of all movements). This is due to the anatomy of the shoulder --> unlike the hip where the head of the femur (thigh) is almost completely surrounded by the joint space, the shoulder joint is very shallow which allows for its wide range of motion. It's essentially held in place by muscles that surround it on 4 different sides, the rotator cuff. Technically speaking, we can not coil our shoulder. The word coil is often used when talking about various athletic techniques such as "coiling" the big muscles of the upper body in the "shoulder turn" of a golf swing. When in a full pool stance the shoulder is extended (backward position). The degree of extension depends on how one gets down on the shot......how close the chin is to the cue. Some players do this more than others, think snooker player vs pool player......see pics. I don't think this has anything to do with the outcome of the shot as most of the movement in the stroke is done by extension/flexion of the forearm by the elbow joint. The shoulder starts to flex forward (causes the elbow to drop) usually after tip contact with the CB (after the CB is on its way down the table). A notable and rare exception is Mike Davis. His shoulder is an active part of his stroke. Note: If one has their grip hand very forward, in front of the balance point, he/she will have more of an elbow drop and thus more shoulder movement.....and a pushing-like stroke. CJ does this and does it very well. This is the exception though as most players don't play like this.....and not something that is taught by the majority of instructors. "Coiling the shoulder" has been mentioned before, not just in relation to masse shots. I don't know what this means and why it is "vitally important". I guess it's another one of those many secrets you talk about. DTL, PA-C
You may coil your shoulder on "jump shots," or "jacked up" over a ball.

Coiling in sports/games is no great mystery, although it''s not commonly taught in pool....it's apparent in golf and tennis. I've not seen a champion player that doesn't coil to some extent, especially when elevating their cue - it's the same principle in regular shots.

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Last edited by CJ Wiley; 03-06-2015 at 02:02 PM.

 (#57) DTL SP 219     Status: Offline Posts: 1,256 vCash: 500 iTrader: 0 / 0% Join Date: Jun 2003 03-06-2015, 02:43 PM ..................... Last edited by DTL; 03-15-2016 at 05:47 AM.
 (#58) number13cfan Banned   Status: Offline Posts: 243 vCash: 500 iTrader: 3 / 100% Join Date: Dec 2013 03-06-2015, 03:29 PM Here's another great website from France, 'Billiard Passion' that may have more influence for the pool game situations for the use of the masse. http://www.billard-passion.fr/blog.php?lng=en&pg=381
(#59)
Colin Colenso
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03-07-2015, 10:19 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by CJ Wiley Yes, there's a system that allows you to do this no matter how much masse' is needed. It's pretty cool, however, it takes a good understanding of the upper body mechanics, and how they conform to the cue's tip......'The Game is the Teacher'

Quote:
 "The first essential step in the direction of learning any subject is to find principles of numerical reckoning and practicable methods for measuring some quality connected with it. I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind." - Lord Kelvin

(#60)
Colin Colenso
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03-07-2015, 10:31 AM

[QUOTE=DTL;5109685]
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CJ Wiley Perhaps you missed one of my points in post #53 .......you can't coil the shoulder. The shoulder is a joint. Now one can really stretch the muscles surrounding/near the shoulder (deltoid, trapezius, rotator cuff (4), etc........wind up, coil, or whatever term you want to apply to it. When shooting a masse or jacked up, one has to, as you say, coil the shoulder (almost full extension of the shoulder). DTL "coiling" a joint might cause a tear in the cartilage or a ligament......ouch
Funny

But I believe coiling, in terms of biomechanics, refers to a sequencing of contrations of various muscles in order to create a degree of eccentric contraction in the following muscle being contracted, as placing muscles in eccentric contraction allows them to contract with significantly more force.

Some call it timing, but it's really about the timing of contractions and the coordination there in.

Quote:
 "The first essential step in the direction of learning any subject is to find principles of numerical reckoning and practicable methods for measuring some quality connected with it. I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind." - Lord Kelvin

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