Table Design and Function - 2 Questions

realkingcobra · Jan 5, 2018

iusedtoberich said:
Poka-yoke means you "can't" misassemble them. Diamond could make the dowels different sizes, so that even if the installer didn't pay attention to the letters, they couldn't be put into the wrong place.

I know all to well, "there is always a better idiot". We deal with it all the time at my company, as we have to design our products to be assembled by regular jo-shmo consumers. Table manufacturer's actually have it better, imo

Not only were the dowels cut off, the A,B,C,D's in the corners and side skirts were NOT lined up....but clearly marked!!

BmoreMoney · Jan 5, 2018

Ok yall, here it goes. The first thing may or may not have been dome before, but of done as its in my mind I think not only would it be really cool but add tremendously to the playability of the table. The second thing is way outside of the box but his try to imagine it of it worked correctly.

First thing is some type of diffused light that rums the entire length and width of the table under the rails. Ot would be completely diffused so there should be absolutely no distraction like a blinking light from a pinball machine or the neon lights from the bar. I'd guess some type of soft white would work the best but with what they are doing with leds the color combinations are almost endless and could make some very cool looks.

Now; lol, the second idear. They now male paint that conducts and reacts to electricity. The paint can literally" light " itself. Brightness is controlled by voltage applied. So we have all seem the beds of tables lit before bit that was always using some type of Plexiglas or the like. Obviously you can.not play on a surface like that. I'm thinking using whatever cloth you normally wod.but applying several thin coats of this paint. Now you have a playable surface but now every square inch is lit up. No more shadows, no more overhead lights etc. How awesome would this be!

realkingcobra · Jan 5, 2018

What's really sad, is the manufacturing industry designers design, then manufacture pool tables for sale, they get sold, then someone has to set them up. I guarantee you, if the idoits that designed some of these pool tables was required to set them up as well....they'd have taken 5 more looks at their design trying to figure out....how to perform the task of setting up that pool table that they designed.....because that's what installers have to do....figure out how to set up a stupid designed pool table, because the designers don't have to....not their job!!! And, pool tables today would play more consistent if the cushion manufactures knew anything more about their cushions other than just selling them, as even they have no idea at what sub rail thickness, what bevel, what nose height, or even which model of cushions play the best. And we're looking for ideas on how to improve pool tables.....how about the single most important idea of all....how about just making all pool tables play more consistent from one pool table to the next, how about a standard size of pockets, hell, even the cloth manufacures except Simonis today, can't tell you how to install their own brand of cloth correctly ....how's that for an idea?

realkingcobra · Jan 5, 2018

BmoreMoney said:
Ok yall, here it goes. The first thing may or may not have been dome before, but of done as its in my mind I think not only would it be really cool but add tremendously to the playability of the table. The second thing is way outside of the box but his try to imagine it of it worked correctly.

First thing is some type of diffused light that rums the entire length and width of the table under the rails. Ot would be completely diffused so there should be absolutely no distraction like a blinking light from a pinball machine or the neon lights from the bar. I'd guess some type of soft white would work the best but with what they are doing with leds the color combinations are almost endless and could make some very cool looks.

Now; lol, the second idear. They now male paint that conducts and reacts to electricity. The paint can literally" light " itself. Brightness is controlled by voltage applied. So we have all seem the beds of tables lit before bit that was always using some type of Plexiglas or the like. Obviously you can.not play on a surface like that. I'm thinking using whatever cloth you normally wod.but applying several thin coats of this paint. Now you have a playable surface but now every square inch is lit up. No more shadows, no more overhead lights etc. How awesome would this be!

Awww hell, just paint the whole table with glow in the dark florescent paint and call it done. Turn the lights on to charge it up, shut the lights off and play pool, or just turn the lights off and put on your night vision goggles.

Mr. Bond · Jan 5, 2018

realkingcobra said:
What's really sad, is the manufacturing industry designers design, then manufacture pool tables for sale, they get sold, then someone has to set them up. I guarantee you, if the idoits that designed some of these pool tables was required to set them up as well....they'd have taken 5 more looks at their design trying to figure out....how to perform the task of setting up that pool table that they designed.....because that's what installers have to do....figure out how to set up a stupid designed pool table, because the designers don't have to....not their job!!! And, pool tables today would play more consistent if the cushion manufactures knew anything more about their cushions other than just selling them, as even they have no idea at what sub rail thickness, what bevel, what nose height, or even which model of cushions play the best. And we're looking for ideas on how to improve pool tables.....how about the single most important idea of all....how about just making all pool tables play more consistent from one pool table to the next, how about a standard size of pockets, hell, even the cloth manufacures except Simonis today, can't tell you how to install their own brand of cloth correctly ....how's that for an idea?

1. More cooperation between ( Brunswick) designers and mechanics.
Surely you wouldn't say this about Diamond.
( seems like you wouldn't care, being a die-hard diamond fan)

1.5. Cushion manufacturers know their product better. ( debatable)
They do tests. So I'm not sure what you could mean here.

2. Better consistency from table to table ( Brunswick)
Again, I'm sure you wouldn't be talking about Diamond here.

3. Cloth has nothing to do with table design.

Thanks for your input.

FeelDaShot · Jan 6, 2018

BmoreMoney said:
Ok yall, here it goes. The first thing may or may not have been dome before, but of done as its in my mind I think not only would it be really cool but add tremendously to the playability of the table. The second thing is way outside of the box but his try to imagine it of it worked correctly.

First thing is some type of diffused light that rums the entire length and width of the table under the rails. Ot would be completely diffused so there should be absolutely no distraction like a blinking light from a pinball machine or the neon lights from the bar. I'd guess some type of soft white would work the best but with what they are doing with leds the color combinations are almost endless and could make some very cool looks.

Now; lol, the second idear. They now male paint that conducts and reacts to electricity. The paint can literally" light " itself. Brightness is controlled by voltage applied. So we have all seem the beds of tables lit before bit that was always using some type of Plexiglas or the like. Obviously you can.not play on a surface like that. I'm thinking using whatever cloth you normally wod.but applying several thin coats of this paint. Now you have a playable surface but now every square inch is lit up. No more shadows, no more overhead lights etc. How awesome would this be!

For the second idea, maybe the slate could be painted and the cloth can be translucent or clear?

FeelDaShot · Jan 6, 2018

realkingcobra said:
What's really sad, is the manufacturing industry designers design, then manufacture pool tables for sale, they get sold, then someone has to set them up. I guarantee you, if the idoits that designed some of these pool tables was required to set them up as well....they'd have taken 5 more looks at their design trying to figure out....how to perform the task of setting up that pool table that they designed.....because that's what installers have to do....figure out how to set up a stupid designed pool table, because the designers don't have to....not their job!!! And, pool tables today would play more consistent if the cushion manufactures knew anything more about their cushions other than just selling them, as even they have no idea at what sub rail thickness, what bevel, what nose height, or even which model of cushions play the best. And we're looking for ideas on how to improve pool tables.....how about the single most important idea of all....how about just making all pool tables play more consistent from one pool table to the next, how about a standard size of pockets, hell, even the cloth manufacures except Simonis today, can't tell you how to install their own brand of cloth correctly ....how's that for an idea?

RKC, you consistently talk bad about other mechanics and designers and explain how they don't know anything about bevel angle, sub rail thickness, nose height, etc. yet you refuse to educate anyone with the correct information.

The way I see it, if you aren't willing to educate the other mechanics then you are contributing to your own problems.

FeelDaShot · Jan 6, 2018

I think there should be industry standards for rails from all manufacturers. For example, each rail should be tested so that a ball hit at a certain speed at a certain angle always produces the same results, regardless of what table you're playing on. Same goes for cloth speed.

realkingcobra · Jan 6, 2018

Mr. Bond said:
1. More cooperation between ( Brunswick) designers and mechanics.
Surely you wouldn't say this about Diamond.
( seems like you wouldn't care, being a die-hard diamond fan)

1.5. Cushion manufacturers know their product better. ( debatable)
They do tests. So I'm not sure what you could mean here.

2. Better consistency from table to table ( Brunswick)
Again, I'm sure you wouldn't be talking about Diamond here.

3. Cloth has nothing to do with table design.

Thanks for your input.

Cloth has nothing to do with table design??? Really???...LMAO Ok then, on an Olhausen table, with no cloth relief on the bottom of the rails, is the nose height effected by the difference between lets say, Simonis 760 vs Championship Titan? Is the nose hight higher, lower, or the same between those cloths?

realkingcobra · Jan 6, 2018

FeelDaShot said:
RKC, you consistently talk bad about other mechanics and designers and explain how they don't know anything about bevel angle, sub rail thickness, nose height, etc. yet you refuse to educate anyone with the correct information.

The way I see it, if you aren't willing to educate the other mechanics then you are contributing to your own problems.

It's not my job as a pool table mechanic to inform cushion manufactures that their cushions olay differently when they're installed on rails with different sub-rail thicknesses. It's THEIR job to give table manufactures recommendations as to how thick their rails should be manufactued combined with X degree bevel to achieve X cushion nose height to obtain the maximum playability of said cushions.....wouldn't you agree? No different than the cloth manufactures instructions on how to install their product, right? I mean, who should know more about how to install cloth than the people who make it....right? We all know that's a joke, "install it tight" is all you'll get from them....LOL define "tight"....and which way is stretched tight....and how tight is tight????....Not my frigging job, that's THEIR job!

So MR. BOND, want some ideas on how to improve pool tables....start there!!!!

FeelDaShot · Jan 6, 2018

realkingcobra said:
It's not my job as a pool table mechanic to inform cushion manufactures that their cushions olay differently when they're installed on rails with different sub-rail thicknesses. It's THEIR job to give table manufactures recommendations as to how thick their rails should be manufactued combined with X degree bevel to achieve X cushion nose height to obtain the maximum playability of said cushions.....wouldn't you agree? No different than the cloth manufactures instructions on how to install their product, right? I mean, who should know more about how to install cloth than the people who make it....right? We all know that's a joke, "install it tight" is all you'll get from them....LOL define "tight"....and which way is stretched tight....and how tight is tight????....Not my frigging job, that's THEIR job!

So MR. BOND, want some ideas on how to improve pool tables....start there!!!!

I agree that it's their job but maybe they don't know that a problem even exists? You seem to be the one with all of the answers so why wouldn't you take the initiative to write a technical article or post a video showing the differences and making a recommendation?

All I ever see you do is complain and/or ask loaded questions like the one you asked above about the cloth thickness effecting the nose height. It seems like you would rather try to make someone else look stupid then simply teaching them something. Such a shame...

realkingcobra · Jan 6, 2018

Mr. Bond said:
1. More cooperation between ( Brunswick) designers and mechanics.
Surely you wouldn't say this about Diamond.
( seems like you wouldn't care, being a die-hard diamond fan)
They hired an ART student to design the GC6....LOL I bet that art student didn't know shit about the MDF slate backing blowing out from stapling the bed cloth on it and has to be replaced as once it blows out enough it won't hold the staples anymore, what a joke. Why would any manufacture use MDF or particle board for the slate backing, that's a set up for failure sooner than later! And how about Brunswick's inability to maintain matching miter angles on both sides of their corner pockets, and how about the side pocket ear under the casting being longer on the right side vs the left creating an out of center side pocket! Or how about Brunswick's inability to manufacture rails at a consistent 1 11/16" sub-rail thickness, which effects the cushion rebound from one GC to the next, being inconsistent! But i understand, you're Pro Brunswick because the build the best....LOL

1.5. Cushion manufacturers know their product better. ( debatable)
They do tests. So I'm not sure what you could mean here.
They do tests??? Oh i know what you mean, Great American tests the new cushions on their rails before they ship them out to seenif they've turned rock hard before they place them in the shipping boxes, if they turn rock hard after that, that's ok, the installers can replace them later....yeah, keep drinking that kool-aid buddy....LOL

2. Better consistency from table to table ( Brunswick)
Again, I'm sure you wouldn't be talking about Diamond here.
Talk about Diamond all you want, but you can pretty much bet 10 of the same Diamonds in a room are going to play the same, which is more than i can say for 10 of the same Brunswick's in the same room! You want to start with consistency not being the same.....start there!

3. Cloth has nothing to do with table design.

Thanks for your input.

That should give you something to think about!

realkingcobra · Jan 6, 2018

FeelDaShot said:
I agree that it's their job but maybe they don't know that a problem even exists? You seem to be the one with all of the answers so why wouldn't you take the initiative to write a technical article or post a video showing the differences and making a recommendation?

All I ever see you do is complain and/or ask loaded questions like the one you asked above about the cloth thickness effecting the nose height. It seems like you would rather try to make someone else look stupid then simply teaching them something. Such a shame...

The answer is simple, until customers stop buying tbe shit products being offered for sale in this industry, there is no incentive to make improvements. Most customers don't want the best products built, they want the cheapest for the money. The quality table manufactures are held back in sales by the cheapest lines of pool tables being sold today, most come from China. Most buyers are more willing to buy a Brunswick knock off than the real Brunswick pool table because they can buy it for at least 50% less! The consumers are the problem, not the manufacturers.

realkingcobra · Jan 6, 2018

FeelDaShot said:
I agree that it's their job but maybe they don't know that a problem even exists? You seem to be the one with all of the answers so why wouldn't you take the initiative to write a technical article or post a video showing the differences and making a recommendation?

All I ever see you do is complain and/or ask loaded questions like the one you asked above about the cloth thickness effecting the nose height. It seems like you would rather try to make someone else look stupid then simply teaching them something. Such a shame...

Don't miss understand my speaking out as complaining, consider it more along the lines of consumer awareness, because i could really give a shit less if the public keeps getting ripped off by sneeky sales people and businesses, i understand they have to make a living just like everyone else does, i nust couldn't do wbat they do, I'd never sleep at night.

I'm 61, i have my own thing i do, and I'm happy with that. I meet new friends everytime i work on a new to me pool table. I love what i do, and see no reason to change because a few don't agree with my views, that's OK with me. My time has almost come and gone, once I'm no longer able to work on pool tables, and Mark Gregory and i talk about this all the time....once we're both done as we're the same age....then who are people going to be calling on to truly rebuild their pool tables....because we're both a dying breed!!!

TurboDraw · Jan 6, 2018

Mr Bond, Interesting thread

imho, There could be improvements to all tables and you have had a pretty good response with many ideas. Any idea is a good one, maybe not feasible, but still good.

Thing is, regardless of how good or bad a table is, you still have to put the damn ball in the hole and again, imho most tables play well enough that when the ball doesn't go in, its usually shooter error and not the tables fault.

So here is my thought, which strays a bit, but lets shift gears and take a look at the balls.

"Electronics" - how about putting a chip in the balls. Each ball has its own frequency, sensors are strategically placed in/on the rail or slate that would track ball movement.

It could be used for training purposes: to set up or recreate games, repeatable drills, replay specific game shot patterns, etc

Whenever I miss, the table hasn't moved, and the hole is where it was... but somehow the damn ball didnt go in the hole..

ChrisinNC · Jan 6, 2018

realkingcobra said:
Don't miss understand my speaking out as complaining, consider it more along the lines of consumer awareness, because i could really give a shit less if the public keeps getting ripped off by sneeky sales people and businesses, i understand they have to make a living just like everyone else does, i nust couldn't do wbat they do, I'd never sleep at night.

I'm 61, i have my own thing i do, and I'm happy with that. I meet new friends everytime i work on a new to me pool table. I love what i do, and see no reason to change because a few don't agree with my views, that's OK with me. My time has almost come and gone, once I'm no longer able to work on pool tables, and Mark Gregory and i talk about this all the time....once we're both done as we're the same age....then who are people going to be calling on to truly rebuild their pool tables....because we're both a dying breed!!!

Yes, it's very unfortunate indeed. Ernesto Dominguez who is a few years older than you guys, told me recently that he's sadly not passing on all his wealth of knowledge to anyone. He's been through too many helpers to mention, and none of them want to work up to his standards, or they want to learn a little and then try to go in to business themselves and steal his customers. Even his sons have no interest in carrying on the family business, as it's simply just too hard a way to make a living!

chefjeff · Jan 6, 2018

I want a flush handle on a drop pocket table that flushes all the balls down to the foot end just like a gully table does. Then I can see what pockets my balls went in and also easily rack.

And is there any way I can get a freekin' lazer on a pool table? Is that too much to ask?

Jeff Livingston

oldroller · Jan 6, 2018

+ one

iusedtoberich said:
To Cobra:

I mean this in the nicest way possible, you are not helpful for brainstorming. You knock down each and every idea. Yes, of course you are the expert, and you have a good eye into what can be practically implemented, and what can't.

But, what you are doing is shutting down people's imaginations. That is the biggest no-no in a brainstorm. You want to keep the ideas coming. Even if they might be very far-fetched. Those ideas might jog someone's brain into coming up with some similar idea, that is not so far-fetched.

You do this consistently, for 10 years, or however long you've been on AZ. You started a thread 6 or 7 years ago about what improvements we would like to see on Diamond tables. A bunch of people had ideas (including me), and you systematically knocked them down one after another.

Ideas don't have to come from you or Mark to be worthy of consideration.

I design products for a living. We have brainstorms all the time. #1 rule, that we state in the beginning of every single brainstorm, is there are no bad ideas. BECAUSE we know that even "bad" ideas might lead to good ones.

I'd never invite you to a brainstorm if you worked in my company. I WOULD invite you afterwards, to review the ideas, and give me your expert feedback on them. But no way would you be in the room where the ideas are thought up.

And this has nothing to do with Diamond rail bounce

+ one + one

realkingcobra · Jan 6, 2018

ChrisinNC said:
Yes, it's very unfortunate indeed. Ernesto Dominguez who is a few years older than you guys, told me recently that he's sadly not passing on all his wealth of knowledge to anyone. He's been through too many helpers to mention, and none of them want to work up to his standards, or they want to learn a little and then try to go in to business themselves and steal his customers. Even his sons have no interest in carrying on the family business, as it's simply just too hard a way to make a living!

I'll give you 3 reasons why this industry as far as the service goes on tables already sold, and why it's almost impossible to find someone you can trust to KNOW what they're doing, and how 10 installers can set up 10 of the exact same pool tables....10 different ways, of which for the most part, are wrong. Don't get me wromg, I'm NOT coming down on all installers, just the 99% that don't know shit except how to impersonate an installer so they can get paid.

You ready cor them 3 reasons......hold it......hold it......here they come.....you ready.....OK......3 reasons are.....BRUNSWICK.....OLHAUSEN......DIAMOND!

Reason is,.just like every other pool table manufactures, once that checknhas cleared....the work done on the pool tables is no longer their concern, and the proof of that is....because not one of the manufacturers require anyone to have any knowledge of working on the equipment they've sold!! And not one pool table manufacture has a training program that requires proof of knowledge that the installer can pass a skill level test showing they know how to work on pool tables correctly....before that can call themselves certified installers!

BmoreMoney · Jan 6, 2018

FeelDaShot said:
For the second idea, maybe the slate could be painted and the cloth can be translucent or clear?

That's a pretty cool idea too! I was thinking along the lines that paint and dye are pretty similar. So instead of dying the cloth blue or green or whatever just use the " Electra paint" and wouldn't change the playability much if at all.

Table Design and Function - 2 Questions

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