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01-06-2018, 02:13 PM

This is a question for Glen : After reading the comment about Oscar it got me thinking about you and meant ro ask you for awhile now. All the mechanics I've ever known always had helpers but from what you post it seems while out on the road you go it alone? Do you ever have your own helpers and if not how are you able to do everything that needs done ( especially the very heavy stuff that seemingly ales two people most of the time )?
  
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01-06-2018, 02:50 PM

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Originally Posted by BmoreMoney View Post
This is a question for Glen : After reading the comment about Oscar it got me thinking about you and meant ro ask you for awhile now. All the mechanics I've ever known always had helpers but from what you post it seems while out on the road you go it alone? Do you ever have your own helpers and if not how are you able to do everything that needs done ( especially the very heavy stuff that seemingly ales two people most of the time )?
Because i know all the tricks of the trade, and because I'm still as strong as a horse even at 61yrs old...LOL Here a few years back while installing a Diamond 10ft, 1650# which equates to having to dead lift 825# at one end of the dolly if you have to lift it off the center wheels....well, at Stan Shuffetts home that's what had to be done. The dolly middke wheels busted through the plywood it was being rolled on and the 2 body builders couldn't lift the art up to roll it....so, i told them to kindly move at which time i simply picked up the end of the cart and rolled it forward....LOL had to picm it up a couple more times in the house too....i got a kick out of their expressions....i just explained...."old man strength" LMAO
  
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01-06-2018, 04:20 PM

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Originally Posted by realkingcobra View Post
I'll give you 3 reasons why this industry as far as the service goes on tables already sold, and why it's almost impossible to find someone you can trust to KNOW what they're doing, and how 10 installers can set up 10 of the exact same pool tables....10 different ways, of which for the most part, are wrong. Don't get me wromg, I'm NOT coming down on all installers, just the 99% that don't know shit except how to impersonate an installer so they can get paid.

You ready cor them 3 reasons......hold it......hold it......here they come.....you ready.....OK......3 reasons are.....BRUNSWICK.....OLHAUSEN......DIAMOND!

Reason is,.just like every other pool table manufactures, once that checknhas cleared....the work done on the pool tables is no longer their concern, and the proof of that is....because not one of the manufacturers require anyone to have any knowledge of working on the equipment they've sold!! And not one pool table manufacture has a training program that requires proof of knowledge that the installer can pass a skill level test showing they know how to work on pool tables correctly....before that can call themselves certified installers!

this is 1000% on the money. Installing is not a true Profession. There certainly are professionals out there, but no way for most consumers to demand a pro or even to know the difference. A true profession is defined by an association that in turn requires its members to pass a number of steps and tests to become certified as, and to be able to call themselves, Professionals.

And I also agree that the impetus has to come from the manufacturers. They should require that their tables are only set up or worked on by their certified pros, and not to warranty anything if its not. Or at least not to warranty it if the work is not done to their standards / specs.

If I get a warranty recall notice on my car, I cant have my neighbor do the work

the consumers who want to go on the cheap can still get what they pay for, but they will know they could have had a "pro" do it right. The consumers who want quality will know they are going to get it, and the product / service will be backed up

That's how things work in many other industries. too bad not so in pool
  
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01-06-2018, 05:48 PM

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Originally Posted by JohnnyOzone View Post
this is 1000% on the money. Installing is not a true Profession. There certainly are professionals out there, but no way for most consumers to demand a pro or even to know the difference. A true profession is defined by an association that in turn requires its members to pass a number of steps and tests to become certified as, and to be able to call themselves, Professionals.

And I also agree that the impetus has to come from the manufacturers. They should require that their tables are only set up or worked on by their certified pros, and not to warranty anything if its not. Or at least not to warranty it if the work is not done to their standards / specs.

If I get a warranty recall notice on my car, I cant have my neighbor do the work

the consumers who want to go on the cheap can still get what they pay for, but they will know they could have had a "pro" do it right. The consumers who want quality will know they are going to get it, and the product / service will be backed up

That's how things work in many other industries. too bad not so in pool
And now you see the problem I've been complaining about for years, in which no one seems to understand. Without the support of the big 3, this industry will never be straightened out, but the flip side of that coin....is that not even the big 3 really know how to fix all the problems that develop in the used table market....because most of the problems are in the designs of the pool tables....and guess who's responsible for those designs.....the big 3! Does anyone actually think the big 3 have table mechanics working for them....LOL...well here's a myth buster....why would they need real pool table mechanics working for them....they're selling NEW pool tables, so all they need are installers.....table mechanics....REAL pool table mechanics come into play AFTER the installers have f#&*%ed up the pool tables beyond even THEIR ability to repair them, then the REAL pool table mechaincs get the task of fixing everything done wrong to the tables, as well as fixing the bad designs....for instance T-nuts used in the middle of the rails, sandwiched in between the top board and bottom board of the rail when it's being made....with either 3 or 4 little prongs like little teeth buried in the wood around the hole the T-nut is mounted in....with absolutely NO way of repairing the rail bolt T-nut once an installer or ANYONE for that matter....has cross threaded the bolt and continued trying to tighten the rail bolt up until the T-nut finally spins....or uses an impact driver drill and over tightens the rail bolts until they strip and spin....who in the hell thinks that's a good idea?????? Every pool table manufacture that builds rail like Olbausen does, so them and most of the Chinese imported pool tables....that's who!!

Yet MR. BOND wants to create a think tank on how to improve pool tables, and iusetoberich thinks that a bunch of thinkers getting together who know NOTHING about the problems that already exist are not important enough to fix....they're interested in dressing up pool tables to make them look prettier....which just leaves even more to complain about when that shit no longer works....because no one knows or cares about how to KEEP it working!!

Unlike installers who need tables to install new cloth on, or pool tables to move and set up....in order to pay their bills....and have to compete with everyone else chasing those same dollars....i have job security because i get to travel all around the country working on pool tables that are so screwed up that the customers DON'T want the installers back again....or are finding out NOW....there's almost no one that knows what in the hell they're doing....so they're patiently waiting on someone who DOES!!!....JOB SECURITY BABY!!!!!
  
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01-06-2018, 06:18 PM

And here's an example of the problems with the customer's today, which makes my job real easy. Customer calls me or sends me a text.....asking me how much i charge for this or that.....i respond, then a lot of them come back with "That's a lot more than i paid the last guy....wow!" To which always respond....then call the last guy back, I'm sure he's waiting on your call...LOL They ask me why I'm so expensive....i ask in return, if you we're happy with the LAST guys work....why are you contracting me?....that's why I'm expensive, because i don't do hack work!
  
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01-06-2018, 06:39 PM

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Originally Posted by ChrisinNC View Post
Yes, it's very unfortunate indeed. Ernesto Dominguez who is a few years older than you guys, told me recently that he's sadly not passing on all his wealth of knowledge to anyone. He's been through too many helpers to mention, and none of them want to work up to his standards, or they want to learn a little and then try to go in to business themselves and steal his customers. Even his sons have no interest in carrying on the family business, as it's simply just too hard a way to make a living!
Next time you run into Ernesto, ask him who showed him how to repair Olhausen rails with broken off rail bolts, instead of drilling out the remaining broken off bolt in order to make room for installing a nut plate and rail bolt, which in order to work, has to have the old broke off bolt out of the way that was only a couple of years ago at the Broken Rack when they moved to their new location
  
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01-07-2018, 01:58 PM

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Originally Posted by realkingcobra View Post
And now you see the problem I've been complaining about for years, in which no one seems to understand. Without the support of the big 3, this industry will never be straightened out, but the flip side of that coin....is that not even the big 3 really know how to fix all the problems that develop in the used table market....because most of the problems are in the designs of the pool tables....and guess who's responsible for those designs.....the big 3! Does anyone actually think the big 3 have table mechanics working for them....LOL...well here's a myth buster....why would they need real pool table mechanics working for them....they're selling NEW pool tables, so all they need are installers.....table mechanics....REAL pool table mechanics come into play AFTER the installers have f#&*%ed up the pool tables beyond even THEIR ability to repair them, then the REAL pool table mechaincs get the task of fixing everything done wrong to the tables, as well as fixing the bad designs....for instance T-nuts used in the middle of the rails, sandwiched in between the top board and bottom board of the rail when it's being made....with either 3 or 4 little prongs like little teeth buried in the wood around the hole the T-nut is mounted in....with absolutely NO way of repairing the rail bolt T-nut once an installer or ANYONE for that matter....has cross threaded the bolt and continued trying to tighten the rail bolt up until the T-nut finally spins....or uses an impact driver drill and over tightens the rail bolts until they strip and spin....who in the hell thinks that's a good idea?????? Every pool table manufacture that builds rail like Olbausen does, so them and most of the Chinese imported pool tables....that's who!!

Yet MR. BOND wants to create a think tank on how to improve pool tables, and iusetoberich thinks that a bunch of thinkers getting together who know NOTHING about the problems that already exist are not important enough to fix....they're interested in dressing up pool tables to make them look prettier....which just leaves even more to complain about when that shit no longer works....because no one knows or cares about how to KEEP it working!!

Unlike installers who need tables to install new cloth on, or pool tables to move and set up....in order to pay their bills....and have to compete with everyone else chasing those same dollars....i have job security because i get to travel all around the country working on pool tables that are so screwed up that the customers DON'T want the installers back again....or are finding out NOW....there's almost no one that knows what in the hell they're doing....so they're patiently waiting on someone who DOES!!!....JOB SECURITY BABY!!!!!

You'd be a great preacher Glen
Problem is, you're preaching to the choir again.
And apparently you still don't understand the purpose of this thread.

Nobody asked you, or anyone, to explain why and how so many manufacturers have problems with producing consistently high quality products. And do you know why nobody asked? Because we already know the answer to that question.
We already know there are problems with certain rails and certain cushions and certain pockets etc. And we already know that certain companies don't give a crap. And we already know that hacks are a huge issue.

But none of those are DESIGN issues. Those are ENGINEERING FAILURES, and poor BUSINESS DECISIONS on the part of the manufacturers. Which are NOT the point of this thread.

I very specifically stated earlier in this thread that I am interested in hearing ideas for NEW enhancements to the design or function of a table. In other words, in case I was not clear enough, Not a pile of complaints about this company or that.

If you have a great idea that relates to a new feature or design element, I'd love to hear it. But the rest of your points are completely moot.

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01-07-2018, 03:26 PM

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Originally Posted by Mr. Bond View Post
I very specifically stated earlier in this thread that I am interested in hearing ideas for NEW enhancements to the design or function of a table. In other words, in case I was not clear enough,
And as i have clearly tried to explain to you, in which you refuse to understand, is that "new ideas for pool tables leads to NEW problems and complaints with new pool tables"

Hey everyone, i bought one of those new glow in the dark pool tables, and now a month later, it don't glow in the dark, does anyone know how to fix it, my installer has no idea, and i can't get a response from the manufacturer!

Or....I bought a new pool table that the sights are suppose to light up on, they didn't work right after the table was installed, I've replaced the batteries like the manufacturer recommended, but they still don't light up....anyone have any ideas?

Hey everyone, i bought one of those new pool tables that has the hydraulic self leveling systems, but about 2 weeks after i bought it an had it installed, over night it leaked out all the hydraulic fluid all over the carpeting, now i have to replace my carpet and the table manufacturer is not willing to pay for the replacement because they claim they didnt set the table up so it's not their problem!!!


Are you getting the picture yet MR. BOND???

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01-07-2018, 07:48 PM

To whom it may concern, and to MR. BOND as well, I'm going to try and explain something to all of you. First off, just like all of you are confused into thinking anyone that touches a pool table ia a table mechanic, let me correct your thought process. If the job requires anything to do with installing something, such as new cloth, new pockets, moving and installing a pool table, installing a new pool table....the key word there is "install" therefore "pool table installer"! You don't call someone that installs new carpet in your house a "carpet mechanic" do you? OK, now you need some work done on your pool table such as pockets tightened, cushions replaced, broke off rail bolts repaired, broken slate repaired, THAT knowledge is different than that of an installers level of expertise, though a "pool table mechanic" can also be an "installer" as well, that don't make an "installer" a pool table mechanic!

OK, now that we've established there's a difference between an "installer" and a "pool table mechanic" let's take a look at the pocket pool table industry, it's divided in to two categories, "residential" and "commercial" pool tables. While the residential industry is flooded with so many different manufacturers there's to many to keep track of, the commercial market on the other hand in this country is devided up only by a few manufactures. In the coin op division you only have Diamond and Valley, and Diamond has done a hell of a job of taking down Valley's market share of this industry over the last 17 years and is here to stay while i can't say the same for the Valley company. Now, that's the coin op commercial side of this industry. The other half of the commercial industry is the so called "professional" pool tables, the 9fts that everyone accepts as the only pool table that really counts, for this conversation anyway...LOL Now, who is manufacturing those size tables and selling them in this country? Well, we have Diamond on one hand and ??? on the other hand? I know most on here are waiting and hoping Brunswick is going to just kick Diamond's ass in sales with their new GC6....but you really need to look at the bigger picture, and that picture is why would Brunswick even care to compete with Diamond in the commercial industry with just ONE pool table, in this country, when there's a whole world out there to sell their GC6 to, that's a market Diamond is currently doing everything they can just to keep up with the demand for their tables as is. Brunswick i guarantee you is more interested in selling pool tables to the residential market rather than worrying about selling GC6's in this country to compete against Diamond in the commercial industry, and once again, they have world wide sales, so why should they be concerned about sales here. The commercial manufacturing industry isn't even big enough to rate the size of a flee on an elephant ass when compared to the residential market place, because that's the elephant in this business!!

Now, in comes MR. Bond, for nothing more than mental masturbation and starts a thread, asking for ideas and ways of improving pool tables, but no clarification as the what market place he's referring to and people start jumping on board like, Oh yeah, that's a great idea and so is that one, and what about this, and how about that. Then iustoberich tells me i have no idea what a "think tank" can come up with that that I'm just Pro Diamond, are you guys all smoking the same shit???? By the fact that Mr. Bond had no idea how to interview the so called MAN from Brunswick, and had NO idea what kind of questions to ask him, then blamed the lack of knowing what to ask on the AZB members because they didn't fill his note book full of quetions to ask either....shows right there no one here on AZB has a clue what they're talking about when it comes to pool tables!!! I'll tell you what, the guy from Brunswick is lucky as hell that i wasn't the one interviewing him, because then everyone would have seen how many questions he couldn't have answered!!

When it comes to changes in pool tables, they're not like next years model of cars, there is no changes made in pool tables as everyone would like to believe there is. Manufacturers produce table models as long as there's sales for that model, sales drop off, the model gets discontinued. All pool tables have a building block foundation, and the further the manufacturers vary from that basic foundation the cost increases, and sales risk being disrupted. There's an average low end market, mid range market, and a high range market. The majority of sales is in the average low end market place as most people that buy those pool tables are not spending their money on a pool table because they love to play pool, they're buying a pool table because they want some furniture in a particular space in a room....and because maybe the kids will like it, and maybe they'll play a game or two once in a while....and because it makes a great laundry folding table.

Now comes the question, even if this AZB "think tank" could come up with even ONE remote idea, that might actually be interesting....who do you think would even be interested in sitting down with you and be willing to discuss it with you? Why don't this "think tank" put their efforts into something that might actually make a difference in this industry....or have all those ideas been exhausted ALREADY?
  
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01-08-2018, 12:07 PM

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Originally Posted by realkingcobra View Post
And as i have clearly tried to explain to you, in which you refuse to understand, is that "new ideas for pool tables leads to NEW problems and complaints with new pool tables"

Are you getting the picture yet MR. BOND???
LMAO Yes I am getting the picture. Grandpa done got his pannies in a bunch because these damn whipper snapper hippies are dreaming up all kinds of new fangled shit, dag-nabbit! Why when I was a kid we walked barefoot to school uphill in the snow!

LOL Every time I read another one of your invective rants, I always think that it could never get more entertaining than this. But you have once again topped your own record.

Who is refusing to understand anything in this thread? Who exactly?
And how in the world would you know what a man understands anyway?
You're a psychologist now too? Your assumptions about people are not only patronizing as hell, but they're also completely off the charts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by realkingcobra View Post
To whom it may concern, and to MR. BOND as well, I'm going to try and explain something to all of you. First off, just like all of you are confused into thinking anyone that touches a pool table ia a table mechanic, let me correct your thought process.

So the topic of the thread is "new design ideas and features for pool tables" and your response is: You're ALL confused about mechanics.

Thanks Glen.



OK, now that we've established there's a difference between an "installer" and a "pool table mechanic" let's take a look at the pocket pool table industry, it's divided in to two categories, "residential" and "commercial" pool tables.


So the topic of the thread is "new design ideas and features for pool tables", and you decide to explain that the industry is divided into two categories.

Thanks Glen.



I know most on here are waiting and hoping Brunswick is going to just kick Diamond's ass in sales with their new GC6....but you really need to look at the bigger picture,

So the topic of the thread is "new design ideas and features for pool tables" and your response is: the results of your personalized AZB survey in which every respondent announced their hatred for Diamond tables.

Good stuff Glen.



Now, in comes MR. Bond, for nothing more than mental masturbation and starts a thread, asking for ideas and ways of improving pool tables, but no clarification as the what market place he's referring to and people start jumping on board like, Oh yeah, that's a great idea and so is that one, and what about this, and how about that.

LoL You mad bro?
What the phuck difference does it make if we want to shoot the shit about table features Glen?



By the fact that Mr. Bond had no idea how to interview the so called MAN from Brunswick, and had NO idea what kind of questions to ask him, then blamed the lack of knowing what to ask on the AZB members because they didn't fill his note book full of quetions to ask either....shows right there no one here on AZB has a clue what they're talking about when it comes to pool tables!!! I'll tell you what, the guy from Brunswick is lucky as hell that i wasn't the one interviewing him, because then everyone would have seen how many questions he couldn't have answered!!

LOL Oh man this is rich.
Still butt hurt because Brunswick won't give you the time of day huh Glen?

What you don't have, that I have Glen, is the ability to speak to people without being defensive and rude. This is why I don't call a designer and drill him to the wall about factory defects and design flaws. I don't ask him to admit that his company has problems out loud. I do not try to embarrass people by looking for a question they might not be able, or might not be allowed, to answer properly.

It's called TACT Glen, which you clearly could use more of.

And here's some more bad news Glen. There are many people here on AZ that know a ton about pool and billiard tables. To declare out loud, that "no-one has a clue", even if it were true, is completely unprofessional.



When it comes to changes in pool tables, they're not like next years model of cars, there is no changes made in pool tables as everyone would like to believe there is.

Pretty sure nobody said anything about believing in changes.
But it's good to know that you have "everyone" pegged so accurately.



Manufacturers produce table models as long as there's sales for that model, sales drop off, the model gets discontinued. All pool tables have a building block foundation, and the further the manufacturers vary from that basic foundation the cost increases, and sales risk being disrupted. There's an average low end market, mid range market, and a high range market. The majority of sales is in the average low end market place as most people that buy those pool tables are not spending their money on a pool table because they love to play pool, they're buying a pool table because they want some furniture in a particular space in a room....and because maybe the kids will like it, and maybe they'll play a game or two once in a while....and because it makes a great laundry folding table.


Absolute genius I tell ya.
But you did leave out the part about Planned Obsolescence, which will clearly explain all the issues you are having with table makers. Maybe you should read up on that and then come back and explain to everyone exactly why Brunswick shouldn't care about its table problems.


Now comes the question, even if this AZB "think tank" could come up with even ONE remote idea, that might actually be interesting....who do you think would even be interested in sitting down with you and be willing to discuss it with you? Why don't this "think tank" put their efforts into something that might actually make a difference in this industry....or have all those ideas been exhausted ALREADY?
Sometimes people just like to talk about things for the sake of talking about things Glen. We don't need a world changing agenda to have a chat. Perhaps you should pick a different thread to respond to if this one is too juvenile for your taste.
  
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01-08-2018, 01:23 PM

Hint,.....so, you're in the design department for Brunswick, can you enlighten us as potential buyers of the new GC6, has Brunswick switched out the MDF particle board for lack of a better description, that they started installing on the GC4s and 5's for a better material that will hold up to replacing the cloth using staples, because it's common knowledge among the service industry that the N
MDF blows apart and will no longer accept staples when installing the bed cloth, as it is it's only good for about 5 bed cloth replacements, then it needs to be replaced or installers have to start using spray glue to finish installing the cloth. If I were a pool room owner with 16 of your commercial pool table's in my establishment, I'd be a little concerned if i had to spend an extra $8,000 to have the backing on my slated replaced just because Brunswick wanted to save some money on production costs.....wouldn't you agree?

MR. BOND....that's a real question that deserves an answer, wouldn't YOU agree? That's my point i guess, if you knew more about pool tables, you'd ask questions that deserve answers.....instead of puffing out your chest like you know something!
  
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01-08-2018, 02:22 PM

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Originally Posted by realkingcobra View Post
Hint,.....so, you're in the design department for Brunswick, can you enlighten us as potential buyers of the new GC6, has Brunswick switched out the MDF particle board for lack of a better description, that they started installing on the GC4s and 5's for a better material that will hold up to replacing the cloth using staples, because it's common knowledge among the service industry that the N
MDF blows apart and will no longer accept staples when installing the bed cloth, as it is it's only good for about 5 bed cloth replacements, then it needs to be replaced or installers have to start using spray glue to finish installing the cloth. If I were a pool room owner with 16 of your commercial pool table's in my establishment, I'd be a little concerned if i had to spend an extra $8,000 to have the backing on my slated replaced just because Brunswick wanted to save some money on production costs.....wouldn't you agree?

MR. BOND....that's a real question that deserves an answer, wouldn't YOU agree? That's my point i guess, if you knew more about pool tables, you'd ask questions that deserve answers.....instead of puffing out your chest like you know something!
I'm not puffing out anything Glen.
You have posted 32 times in this thread, 4 times more than anyone else, without mentioning anything related to the topic at hand, and while insulting every reader of this forum. You sir are the puffy one here. I just asked a couple of innocent questions and you went off like a cannon.

Its planned Obsolescence Glen plain and simple.

#1. They don't want the table to last all that long. On purpose. So no, they aren't gonna make it better and there is no real reason to ask if you already understand this.

#2. The mdf is a known issue, and there is a known work-around. Use glue instead.

So the question becomes pointless. Even if they changed it, you/we would probably use glue anyway.
  
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01-08-2018, 02:36 PM

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Originally Posted by Mr. Bond View Post
I'm not puffing out anything Glen.
You have posted 32 times in this thread, 4 times more than anyone else, without mentioning anything related to the topic at hand, and while insulting every reader of this forum. You sir are the puffy one here. I just asked a couple of innocent questions and you went off like a cannon.

Its planned Obsolescence Glen plain and simple.

#1. They don't want the table to last all that long. On purpose. So no, they aren't gonna make it better and there is no real reason to ask if you already understand this.

#2. The mdf is a known issue, and there is a known work-around. Use glue instead.

So the question becomes pointless. Even if they changed it, you/we would probably use glue anyway.
Glenn can tell you more than a few things about pool tables and the design of them. Why can't you utilize his 30 years of being the best? If I were Brunswick or Diamond, I would hire him and put him training pool table mechanics all over the world.


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01-08-2018, 02:45 PM

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Originally Posted by denwhit View Post
Glenn can tell you more than a few things about pool tables and the design of them. Why can't you utilize his 30 years of being the best? If I were Brunswick or Diamond, I would hire him and put him training pool table mechanics all over the world.
Just like usual, Glen ignores the questions asked and throws insults about.

Just like usual, Glen tells everybody how great Glen is.

Just like usual, you take your hands out of glen's pants in order to defend him.
  
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01-08-2018, 03:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Bond View Post
1. More cooperation between ( Brunswick) designers and mechanics.
Surely you wouldn't say this about Diamond.
( seems like you wouldn't care, being a die-hard diamond fan)

1.5. Cushion manufacturers know their product better. ( debatable)
They do tests. So I'm not sure what you could mean here.

2. Better consistency from table to table ( Brunswick)
Again, I'm sure you wouldn't be talking about Diamond here.
Your words, not mine. I have tried to work with Brunswick, and i do work with Diamond, and I've tried working with Olhausen. Seems the only one's that DO care is Diamond, but i don't always get a 100% of the changes made that i recommend, but at least they care enough to work with me.
  
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