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Chopdoc
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08-07-2018, 05:30 PM

From what I see and assume so far, essentially the bumper was holding the butt cap, not the screw head.

.


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Old
  (#32)
Chopdoc
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08-07-2018, 05:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ideologist View Post
I am guessing this was made by some dude in his garage, or an overseas copy of a Balabushka/Gus

Too many "not quality" things here, as well as obvious influence from their construction styles.

Really cool piece to have, especially if you got it cheap. Clean it up and enjoy it
That's what I see at the moment.

I would fix up that butt cap fastening arrangement as part of the re-do.

.


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  (#33)
WildWing
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08-07-2018, 06:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopdoc View Post
From what I see and assume so far, essentially the bumper was holding the butt cap, not the screw head.

.
The OP just said the screw does go into the tenon, which, although looks kind of short to do that, I guess we take his word for it. I don't think a bumper would hold a buttcap on the tenon, as nothing would be holding the buttcap on the tenon.

I tend to agree with you now that it's probably not a Joss, but I'm not sure who else did piloted 5/16 X 18 pins. And Joss always did weight bolts, even if light aluminum. I'd be curious as to how this is some dude in his garage, given the spliced points. That would be a pretty talented dude. Having said that, I've had conversations in my local pool room with a guy with a lathe in his garage that builds a few cues. It can be done.

All the best,
WW
  
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  (#34)
Chopdoc
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08-07-2018, 06:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildWing View Post
The OP just said the screw does go into the tenon, which, although looks kind of short to do that, I guess we take his word for it. I don't think a bumper would hold a buttcap on the tenon, as nothing would be holding the buttcap on the tenon.

I tend to agree with you now that it's probably not a Joss, but I'm not sure who else did piloted 5/16 X 18 pins. And Joss always did weight bolts, even if light aluminum. I'd be curious as to how this is some dude in his garage, given the spliced points. That would be a pretty talented dude. Having said that, I've had conversations in my local pool room with a guy with a lathe in his garage that builds a few cues. It can be done.

All the best,
WW
I have a feeling the builder did not make the splice. But that does not mean much. GB built many great cues and never built a splice as far as anyone knows.

If you look at the end of the butt cap it is relieved for the bumper. The bumper is wider than the bore through the butt cap. Hence, screwing the bumper to the tenon would help hold the butt cap on, though not a great way to do it. It could easily move.


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  (#35)
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08-07-2018, 07:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopdoc View Post
I have a feeling the builder did not make the splice. But that does not mean much. GB built many great cues and never built a splice as far as anyone knows.

If you look at the end of the butt cap it is relieved for the bumper. The bumper is wider than the bore through the butt cap. Hence, screwing the bumper to the tenon would help hold the butt cap on, though not a great way to do it. It could easily move.
Yep, I see where the bumper goes into the buttcap. But, I don't see how that puts any pressure on the tenon the keep the buttcap in place. Also, we haven't seen that this is a threaded bumper to twist in. There could be some things we don't know, such as, is the screw long enough to go in the tenon? Also, is the buttcap to tenon fit so tight that nothing else was necessary? Don't know. Sometimes, even double coated tape, activated and dried with solvent can hold everything together.

Agree the blank could have come from elsewhere. Though, if a garage project, that is a pretty nice looking joint and pin. I have a feeling, if redone, proper cap and aluminum bolt put in, this may be a pretty nice looking cue, with those nice boxes in the sleeve. Even if it aint a George or Gus, and time has taken a toll, it looks like someone made an effort.

All the best,
WW
  
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  (#36)
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08-08-2018, 01:50 AM

Can we get a better picture of the joint pin and joint sleeve?
  
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  (#37)
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08-08-2018, 04:25 AM

How much longer is the ebony section below the windows than the section above the windows? How much smaller in diameter is the ebony section below the window section than the window section?


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  (#38)
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08-08-2018, 05:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildWing View Post
Yep, I see where the bumper goes into the buttcap. But, I don't see how that puts any pressure on the tenon the keep the buttcap in place. Also, we haven't seen that this is a threaded bumper to twist in. There could be some things we don't know, such as, is the screw long enough to go in the tenon? Also, is the buttcap to tenon fit so tight that nothing else was necessary? Don't know. Sometimes, even double coated tape, activated and dried with solvent can hold everything together.

Agree the blank could have come from elsewhere. Though, if a garage project, that is a pretty nice looking joint and pin. I have a feeling, if redone, proper cap and aluminum bolt put in, this may be a pretty nice looking cue, with those nice boxes in the sleeve. Even if it aint a George or Gus, and time has taken a toll, it looks like someone made an effort.

All the best,
WW
There's probably a thin metal washer embedded into the rubber bumper (may have some rubber over it keeping it from being seen). Most of this type are that way. The screw head is bottoming out on that while the remaining rubber at the bottom of the bumper pushes against the inner delrin shoulder pulling the bumper tight towards the tenon.


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  (#39)
Duane Remick
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08-08-2018, 06:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildWing View Post
The OP just said the screw does go into the tenon, which, although looks kind of short to do that, I guess we take his word for it. I don't think a bumper would hold a buttcap on the tenon, as nothing would be holding the buttcap on the tenon.

I tend to agree with you now that it's probably not a Joss, but I'm not sure who else did piloted 5/16 X 18 pins. And Joss always did weight bolts, even if light aluminum. I'd be curious as to how this is some dude in his garage, given the spliced points. That would be a pretty talented dude. Having said that, I've had conversations in my local pool room with a guy with a lathe in his garage that builds a few cues. It can be done.

All the best,
WW
" Looking at the tenon with the grooves cut for glue-
I think the butt cap was intended to be glued on to the cue-
BUT-
its Delrin-
And " WE" know nothing really sticks to Delrin-
Making me think that the cue could be from a hobbyist type ????

The screw for the bumper looks to hold the bumper on, ONLY- "TO ME"


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  (#40)
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08-08-2018, 07:03 AM

just a wild thought: could this be one of the Prather cue building kits from the late 80's/early 90's?
  
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08-08-2018, 07:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodyosborne View Post
just a wild thought: Could this be one of the prather cue building kits from the late 80's/early 90's?
"that's a possibillity .


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08-08-2018, 09:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodyosborne View Post
just a wild thought: could this be one of the Prather cue building kits from the late 80's/early 90's?
Interesting thought although I seem to remember most of those were non-veneer points. To be honest, I'm not 100% certain this isn't a full spliced conversion. There's a 2" rattle ring at the A joint after all. Depending on the full splice, you could easily cut the forearm at 28.5 inches, the rattle ring would cover the bottom 2" of the splice and the handle tenoned and screwed in. The only "hitch in the giddyup" to me would be the joint size still staying at .83 and maintaining the point length. Is that a possibility?



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08-08-2018, 02:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by skins View Post
There's probably a thin metal washer embedded into the rubber bumper (may have some rubber over it keeping it from being seen). Most of this type are that way. The screw head is bottoming out on that while the remaining rubber at the bottom of the bumper pushes against the inner delrin shoulder pulling the bumper tight towards the tenon.
Well, Tim, interesting theory. The thin metal washer in those rubber bumpers were usually done for the small allen screws, to fit into the weight bolt. This screw looks too big for that.

As for the bottom of the bumper pushing against the inner delrin shoulder pulling the bumper tight towards the tenon, I don't think so. That would only put outer pressure on the bumper, and buttplate, and would not secure the buttplate to the tenon. In fact, it would if anything, force the buttplate outwards, which wouldn't secure it to the tenon.

The OP did state a couple times that the screw does go into the tenon, so absent anything else, I think that's how this cue was made. He also said there are some glue lines in the tenon, so I think that's probably how it was made. Although Delrin is hard to glue, with some roughing and grooves, epoxy can hold it.

Some comments earlier from Duane on possibly Jerry Rauenzahn getting his hands on this cue for a repair. I agree with that, especially given that phenolic piece on the front of the wrap portion, which is strange. Jerry did a lot of hard to do repairs, including broken handles, and could recognize this one, though just a possibility. For that matter, so has Scot Sherbine and others, though this cue looks like too much wear for more recent cue repairmen.

Everything is strange, but multiple repairs can make it so. I wonder if there's a possibility this cue is a very early make of a known cuemaker, but it went through a lot of repairs. As the Kid From Brooklyn said, Think About It...

All the best,
H
  
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08-08-2018, 04:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildWing View Post
Well, Tim, interesting theory. The thin metal washer in those rubber bumpers were usually done for the small allen screws, to fit into the weight bolt. This screw looks too big for that.

As for the bottom of the bumper pushing against the inner delrin shoulder pulling the bumper tight towards the tenon, I don't think so. That would only put outer pressure on the bumper, and buttplate, and would not secure the buttplate to the tenon. In fact, it would if anything, force the buttplate outwards, which wouldn't secure it to the tenon.

The OP did state a couple times that the screw does go into the tenon, so absent anything else, I think that's how this cue was made. He also said there are some glue lines in the tenon, so I think that's probably how it was made. Although Delrin is hard to glue, with some roughing and grooves, epoxy can hold it.

Some comments earlier from Duane on possibly Jerry Rauenzahn getting his hands on this cue for a repair. I agree with that, especially given that phenolic piece on the front of the wrap portion, which is strange. Jerry did a lot of hard to do repairs, including broken handles, and could recognize this one, though just a possibility. For that matter, so has Scot Sherbine and others, though this cue looks like too much wear for more recent cue repairmen.

Everything is strange, but multiple repairs can make it so. I wonder if there's a possibility this cue is a very early make of a known cuemaker, but it went through a lot of repairs. As the Kid From Brooklyn said, Think About It...

All the best,
H
You can drill the washer out to fit any screw plus there were those made for bigger screws or just force a slightly bigger screw in. It's been done. Not good but done none the less.. I'd guess it's one of those scenarios. As for the bumper pushing the delrin cap outward, it would only be an issue if the the inner wall machining didn't compensate for that regardless it wouldn't be a problem unless you hit the cue real hard on the ground which has exploded many a buttcap.

It's most likely done as I described...That's how many if not most or all those bumpers were made..


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  (#45)
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08-08-2018, 07:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by skins View Post
You can drill the washer out to fit any screw plus there were those made for bigger screws or just force a slightly bigger screw in. It's been done. Not good but done none the less.. I'd guess it's one of those scenarios. As for the bumper pushing the delrin cap outward, it would only be an issue if the the inner wall machining didn't compensate for that regardless it wouldn't be a problem unless you hit the cue real hard on the ground which has exploded many a buttcap.

It's most likely done as I described...That's how many if not most or all those bumpers were made..
I go along with you most of the time. But, how does a bumper exert inward pressure on the buttcap upon the tenon, to keep the buttcap in place, in a location higher up than the bumper, without a screw in the tenon?

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H
  
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