Brunswick 360 History
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Brunswick 360 History - 06-21-2017, 10:06 PM

Hello all,
I've been trying to track down info on this amazing cue. But, there isn't much info out there.

From my research the 360 was made from 1909-1929, but that is pretty much all the info I can find.
Who was the maker?
Are they all the same?
That's just some of the questions, if anyone has the history of this groundbreaking cue please post up and let's get a discussion started!
Attached are some of the links.
http://www.palmercollector.com/Bruns...lorPlates.html
http://www.antiquebilliardtables.com..._pool_cues.htm

This is just scratching the surface of the questions I have, and I'm sure other have as well.
I wonder if Bunswick has more info, hidden away, somewhere? I've done a search on their site, but all they have available is the old catalogue.

I've seen a few makers putting out 360 inspired cues, and recently seen a show stopper of a replica. Post up any info!

Thanks
JCM
  
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06-22-2017, 10:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Manning View Post
Hello all,
I've been trying to track down info on this amazing cue. But, there isn't much info out there.

From my research the 360 was made from 1909-1929, but that is pretty much all the info I can find.
Who was the maker?
Are they all the same?
That's just some of the questions, if anyone has the history of this groundbreaking cue please post up and let's get a discussion started!
Attached are some of the links.
http://www.palmercollector.com/Bruns...lorPlates.html
http://www.antiquebilliardtables.com..._pool_cues.htm

This is just scratching the surface of the questions I have, and I'm sure other have as well.
I wonder if Bunswick has more info, hidden away, somewhere? I've done a search on their site, but all they have available is the old catalogue.

I've seen a few makers putting out 360 inspired cues, and recently seen a show stopper of a replica. Post up any info!

Thanks
JCM
A bump hoping to find info on this historic cue.


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06-22-2017, 12:02 PM

Herman Rambow left Brunswick from 1921 to 1927. And some time during that period signed over his patents to Brunswick I believe. He was the shop foreman when he returned.

There were other makers at Brunswick, I don't know their names off hand but I believe some of those names are known. You would do well searching the AZB forums for Brunswick history.

AFAIK these cues were a direct product of the Brunswick shop.

It is not unlikely that HR had his hands on at least some of them.

I don't know how much if anything his patent(s) had to do with producing that cue, but you might do well researching Rambow and Brunswick patents from the early 20th century for at least some leads on the Brunswick history of that period. You may find some additional names of people that worked in the shop or at least for Brunswick.

Incidentally, Rieper produced beautiful cues similar to the 360. Occasionally I see a "360" cue for sale that I suspect may actually be a Rieper.

Patent and trademark filings can yield surprising information, as well as various different corporate filings with various local, state, and federal agencies. Period newspaper articles can reveal surprises as well. I have found cue maker information that way in the past. It can be laborious to say the least.


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360s - 06-22-2017, 01:58 PM

Most collectors believe that the 360s were French made
A friend of mine has several originals and they are something to behold
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06-22-2017, 04:57 PM

If these will be at midwest cuecollcters show I will come.


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06-22-2017, 05:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arounceville View Post
Most collectors believe that the 360s were French made
I have heard that, but I didn't know that "most" collectors believed that.


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06-22-2017, 05:39 PM

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Originally Posted by Chopdoc View Post
I have heard that, but I didn't know that "most" collectors believed that.


.
I guess I should edit what is said with most cue collectors who I have spoken to about the history of the Brunswick 360 ( which is quite a few , I would assume because I make a 360 style blank ) believe that the originals were built in France .
  
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06-22-2017, 06:13 PM

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Originally Posted by Arounceville View Post
I guess I should edit what is said with most cue collectors who I have spoken to about the history of the Brunswick 360 ( which is quite a few , I would assume because I make a 360 style blank ) believe that the originals were built in France .

It seems reasonable as there were French cues of similar style produced then, though perhaps not as elaborate or iconic.

There was a Brunswick of France, we know that and have seen a few of those cues.

I don't doubt what you have said.

Obviously people that have these cues for close inspection and comparison with others can comment more directly.

I have cues from that era, both US made as well as European, but I don't have a 360.

I suppose it is also possible they were imported as blanks and finished here.

I would love to see a knowledgeable dissertation on these cues. What I have seen is fragmented information.

They are obviously beautiful and iconic as well as mysterious in some ways.

.I mentioned Rieper made some similar cues, so we do know at least some cues of this style were made in the US.

The most embellished cue I ever saw was of this type. It came with an equally embellished case and provenance that went back to at least about 1930. It sold for $17,000 as I remember. Probably a good price at auction.


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06-22-2017, 06:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arounceville View Post
Most collectors believe that the 360s were French made
A friend of mine has several originals and they are something to behold
Those blanks look familiar... the one I've seen is a show stopper!
  
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06-22-2017, 06:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopdoc View Post
Herman Rambow left Brunswick from 1921 to 1927. And some time during that period signed over his patents to Brunswick I believe. He was the shop foreman when he returned.

There were other makers at Brunswick, I don't know their names off hand but I believe some of those names are known. You would do well searching the AZB forums for Brunswick history.

AFAIK these cues were a direct product of the Brunswick shop.

It is not unlikely that HR had his hands on at least some of them.

I don't know how much if anything his patent(s) had to do with producing that cue, but you might do well researching Rambow and Brunswick patents from the early 20th century for at least some leads on the Brunswick history of that period. You may find some additional names of people that worked in the shop or at least for Brunswick.

Incidentally, Rieper produced beautiful cues similar to the 360. Occasionally I see a "360" cue for sale that I suspect may actually be a Rieper.

Patent and trademark filings can yield surprising information, as well as various different corporate filings with various local, state, and federal agencies. Period newspaper articles can reveal surprises as well. I have found cue maker information that way in the past. It can be laborious to say the least.


.
I've done a search here, actually it was the first thing I did... not much info. Or in the Billiards Encyclopedia. But, I'll search again.
Never thought about a patent search, I'll get the on it and post up.
  
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06-22-2017, 08:40 PM

Still searching through Patents, but ran across a Rambow patent and thought it would be cool to share. Attached is the link, it has three pages.
http://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=0...252Bcue%252522
  
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06-24-2017, 05:43 PM

They were French inspired of course, but not French made.
Basically all Brunswick cues (sold in the U.S.) after the turn of the century were made here in the U.S., and most of those in Muskegon.

They were intended to all look "the same" for ease of replicating the cue again and again, although there will naturally be variations in the colors.

"Ease of replication" was a bit of a big deal, as the cue require 3 different splicing sessions and something like 150 separate pieces of wood.
There's a good chance that it was Brunswick's most complicated production piece to this day.

George Britner and Herman Rambow were known to be the "top dogs" of Brunswick's cue department for decades, so it is perfectly reasonable to speculate that they had their hands on some of the 360s or 36s.

However, Brunswick also had an ARMY of excellent cue makers at the time. They were spitting out over 400,000 a year. So, maybe George and Herman never saw any 360s, because they had so many other things to do. We simply don't have the documentation to say anything for certain.

There are no patent records of any kind related to the 36 or 360.
  
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06-24-2017, 07:00 PM

Britner? That's the name I was struggling to remember I think.

I have a butterfly splice cue with veneers from Brunswick of Canada.

I have often wondered about the history of that shop as well but never looked into it.

I have speculated that Rambow actually was not doing these splices. He returned as foreman while these cues were already in production. Whether or not or how much he might have had to do with any individual 360 would be wild speculation. I think it is likely the various operations involved required multiple craftsmen to achieve the output required.

I have never seen a splice known to be credited to Rambow. All the cues I have seen credited to him were "conversions". That is not to say he didn't do splices. But if someone produces proof that a certain cue was produced from scratch by him that would be a real find IMHO.

The 360 remains a real icon. And the association with Rambow having been there at least part of that time serves to boost the mystique of these cues.

.


.

.


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06-24-2017, 08:19 PM

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Originally Posted by Chopdoc View Post
Britner? That's the name I was struggling to remember I think.

I have a butterfly splice cue with veneers from Brunswick of Canada.

I have often wondered about the history of that shop as well but never looked into it.

I have speculated that Rambow actually was not doing these splices. He returned as foreman while these cues were already in production. Whether or not or how much he might have had to do with any individual 360 would be wild speculation. I think it is likely the various operations involved required multiple craftsmen to achieve the output required.

I have never seen a splice known to be credited to Rambow. All the cues I have seen credited to him were "conversions". That is not to say he didn't do splices. But if someone produces proof that a certain cue was produced from scratch by him that would be a real find IMHO.

The 360 remains a real icon. And the association with Rambow having been there at least part of that time serves to boost the mystique of these cues.

.
Yes, ( Britner and Rambow) they were both skilled ivory turners as well. Britner most likely was Rambow's mentor. Not a commonly understood fact. Most people think of cues only when it comes to Rambow.

I would love to find out more about the cue masters of Brunswick's other factories, overseas etc but yeah they weren't hip on giving individual credit.

I'm sure that Herman was responsible ( at least partially) for the expansion of the Brunswick cue catalog but to what extent will be hard to prove.
  
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06-25-2017, 07:05 PM

I can't verify but I know that Herman went and trained in France on the more intricate French splices the Berger and vignaux. 4pt/bf....and ivory ball turning


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