Yes, I think. Is there a difference between "tip steer" and "swoop stroke"?
pj
chgo
why did jose hit the 9 this way?
- Thread starter evergruven
- Start date
pj
chgo
I have no idea, honestly. I've always done this on some shots and considered it a stroke flaw. This thread was an interesting read. I'm going to work on eliminating it out of my stroke.
It's neither. You don't come off line until well after the ball is gone.
It is an affectation, a flinch, some body english, a move to get your opponent to bet higher, an unconscious relictual idiosyncrasy from when you did swoop, a visible expression of intent, or something like that. It may be catching but it's not serious.:smile:
Thank you for the feedback. I shot that directly after a close friend of mines funeral, sorry for the music. That I can definitely eliminate with a little work.
Bob's the expert but I consider that a flaw as well. You're a good player and I didn't see that as best I could tell on any other shot. Maybe it was because your bridge hand was half on the rail? You can fix that so why not?
I highly respect Bob's opinion as well. I'm not sure how often I do that, but I definitely did it on that shot. I'll set that shot up again and shoot that twitch out of me. lol
Thanks for offering a lay perspective. From an instructor's perspective, I've shown dozens of players who struggle with english how to make a slight swoop to better control the rock.
Hi Dan. If Dave's video was about a theory of getting extra spin or not, then he clearly doesn't understand the stroke. It's not about getting extra spin. It's about less cue ball squirt, because initial contact is at center ball. I believe that the tip stays on the ball longer as the player changes the pool cue's direction ----and here's the key --- RIGHT AT THE MOMENT OF CONTACT --- with a twisting back hand. That's why I asked if the stroke is even legal. Back when we were all doing it, no one really questioned it. All they knew was that on many shots there was no need to adjust their aim for cb squirt. On some shots, yes, of course, there were some minor adjustments for squirt.
Remember: LD Shafts hadn't been invented yet and cue balls were squirting like crazy with parallel English. A well-known player used to laugh at me and said my stroke for applying English back then looked like a windshield wiper. That was a pretty accurate description, LOL, but by no means was I alone.
Oh, and btw, you can get plenty of spin with that stroke if you can learn how to trust it. It takes a long time and a lot of practice to build up that kind of trust, which is another reason why I'm certain Dave doesn't understand the stroke. Notice that he wasn't pocketing balls in his video. That's what this is all about --- pocketing that tough shot and sending the cb multi rails for position --- not hitting the cb into a rail like he was doing.
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I understand. It seems there is more than one conversation going on regarding the swoop stroke. The one I was referring to was the contention by some players that by swooping you can achieve a greater amount of english than maximum tip offset can do. I think that is what Dave was trying to demonstrate. I agree that if the motion required to make it work is difficult to learn then Dave's video might not be considered conclusive. That's why I was hoping that someone who knows the swoop stroke well could actually demonstrate the high spin effect and put the debate to rest.
I see some problems with that - here's the first one:
If you set up for a centerball hit (with your bridge on the centerball line), then in order to hit center ball at an angle you must first swoop the tip in the opposite direction of the spin you want and then swoop it back in the direction of spin you want - an s-curve swoop stroke. Is that what you're describing?
pj
chgo
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Yet even a very small wrist twist or other sideways movement would cause the edge of the tip to strike center ball without any "s-shape stroke". Set up a center ball shot, now move the stroke hand slightly left, the cue tip goes right, placing the cue tip's left edge where center cue tip was before.
Continuing that move--even for the minute fractions of a second through impact--spins the ball like a globe which gets slapped obliquely instead of struck straight ahead--with efficiency.
Nonsense.
If it spins the ball at all, it spins it exactly like a straight stroke would - except with much less stroke accuracy/reliability.
It's easy to prove, if you really care to know...
pj
chgo
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Yes, it was easily proven in numerous lessons, by me. Your use of "it" above is telling--no matter how many times I ask people to try it at the tables (learn for themselves when they're being argumentative) they assess from the comfort of an armchair.
I try to be Socratic, so you can learn, thus, some questions:
1) How many pros advocate avoiding dead center ball, and strike above or below dead center, when playing the vertical axis--where you would strike dead center?
2) How many pros say "we pros tend to spin most shots in"? How is this done? Dead center vertical axis strokes with center cue tip, do you think?
3) Do all the pro strokes you've seen that veer after impact have the "problems" that were diagnosed in the video on this thread--or could something else be happening?
PS. Do you stand corrected on the s-swoop stroke? Or will it be your stock-in-trade to call me nonsensical every time I point out your errors?
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I think if I need to learn to use a swoop stroke to get more spin, then there's definitely something else major I need to work on prior to using the karate sweep on whitey that got me into that position in the first place.
I know nothing about swooping and I'll keep it that way. If a beginner can't shoot straight, it would be a interesting watch for them learning this swoop stroke. lol
Nope. Starting at the center and swooping to the right, for right hand spin. Interesting theory, though. I probably threw you off with the windshield wiper comment. It's not exactly like a wiper, just the second half of the wipe motion.
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Unwillingness to test what you teach isn't the mark of a good instructor. My advice to whoever got those lessons is get another opinion.
pj
chgo
Whoever is talking about more spin with the swoop stroke is wrong. It was never about achieving more spin. It was about achieving the same amount of spin as the parallel method but without the same amount of cb squirt.
I think it may have been the precursor to the pivot stroke.
But if you're (not you personally) going to make a big deal out of comparing it in a video to other strokes, then at least do your homework and find out what the stroke was originally intended to accomplish.
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It's easy to see how either or both could be believed, especially if you're good enough to swoop without losing too much accuracy.
But I'm pretty sure it's really just correcting for squirt the same way every other technique does: angling the direction of the tip's movement to the equal opposite angle of the squirt angle.
The pic below shows what I mean by the two techniques producing the same direction of tip movement (and the same amount of squirt) at contact.
pj
chgo
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One may stroke "butt-to-tip diagonal" or "straight back-and-forth parallel to shot line", and this might be the fourth (?) time I've asked you which you do, since we instructors like to find out what the student is actually doing or claiming to do.mile:
Hopefully you now understand that Billiards About is the teacher and you are the student. Please be more descriptive about what you do so he can correct your shortcomings/ misconceptions and get you headed down the correct path.
And perhaps if you ask nicely he'll be willing to name a few pros and instructors. I'll bet anything Scott Lee is one of them.