Dramatic Changes to BCAPL Vegas

Mark Griffin said:

We cannot use Regional (or State) results to move a players status. There is alot of difference in winning an event with 38 players - ro an event with 400 players - or 1400 players.

We will pay attention to 'local' results - but the main criteria will be performance in the Nationals.

We would like to think that most Regional & State events will rely on our player placement for their own events.

Hope this helps.

Mark Griffin

Click to expand...

Mr. Griffin,

I do agree with you on the amount of players in each division will be a lot less at regionals vice nationals in which the percentage of players moving to higher divisions go way down in comparism to nationals. Also the players that are being moved to a higher division would not be moved until after the upcoming nationals.

My concern is that the divisions are not set up the same amongs all events and if the results do not matter for nationals, then nationals will not weed out the open class for another 10 years. Which in turn will lead to what is seems like to me, top finishers in the open class that probably should have been in a higher division from the get go.

I would like to credit you on the BCAPL, you and your team have definitely made great changes in how leagues are operated and have raised the bar for others to try and keep up.

Thank you for improving the game.

Thanks for the response Mark and Holly. After reading more and more of the team make up rules, it seems this could be a great way to increase the participation of the Master teams. I know it's negatively effects some players and established teams, (myself included potentially) but if I'm looking at it from a growth perspective rather than for my own personal gain, it seems this could be an effective way to help the team events grow.

Thanks again for your response and I'm looking forward to competing with Tony next year in Scotch!

GG11 said:

Thanks for the response Mark and Holly. After reading more and more of the team make up rules, it seems this could be a great way to increase the participation of the Master teams. I know it's negatively effects some players and established teams, (myself included potentially) but if I'm looking at it from a growth perspective rather than for my own personal gain, it seems this could be an effective way to help the team events grow.

Thanks again for your response and I'm looking forward to competing with Tony next year in Scotch!

Click to expand...

Very Classy! :thumbup:

Wish there were thousands more like you that are capable of seeing the big picture!

I also like GG's classy response.

I have a question about the advanced rating when it was arrived at via team mastership. If you achieved advanced status in this manner yet you rarely cash in the open singles (let alone approach the top 64/48/whatever the boundary is) is it possible to petition to be lowered to open status?

It seems that this may be a little difficult as the individual's "team performance" is not recorded. Also there could be incentive to "underachieve" in the singles to stay eligible to consistently play on an open team. However there is also the case of the non-cashing open player who goes .500 (if not worse) in the team tourny who finds themselves with advanced status which is really unmerited.

I understand that you cannot please all the people all the time & that this situation may simply be an unavoidable casualty.

Can you offer any guidance?

Thanks

Roger

Question on Mens Advanced vs Womens Advanced

After reviewing again, I was just kinda curious about one big difference between the Mens Advanced and the Womens -

Mixed Advanced Teams (4 person teams / 8 players max on roster)
1 - No Grand Masters.
2 - Only one (1) Master on the roster.
3 - Remainder of roster made up of Open and Advanced Players.
4 - Teams must have at least two (2) original players from their local league team.
5 - Two (2) original players must play in each round.
6 - Additional players may come from any BCAPL sanctioned league in the same state as the team origin.

Women’s Advanced / Master Teams (4 person teams)
1 - Only one (1) Master or Grand Master on the roster.
2 - Remainder of roster made up of Open and Advanced Players.
3 - The Master or Grand Master may come from any BCAPL sanctioned league in the same state as the team origin.
4 - All Advanced and Open Players on the roster must be from the same league.
5 - There is no original player requirement for the Women’s Advanced Teams.

Fielding Women's teams, especially in the smaller areas, has always been difficult, is their any consideration or reason that the Women's Advanced/Masters division could not pull a few additional players from other areas in the state, just like the Men's?

GG11 said:

Thanks again for your response and I'm looking forward to competing with Tony next year in Scotch!

Click to expand...

Hi GG,

Perhaps next year it will be time for our challenge match. I've been hounding Tony to play a scotch doubles match since you beat my partner two years ago on the hill in the singles. Seriously, I don't want to make too big a deal out of it but I thought it might be fun. Tammy and me are an open scotch team. How much weight do you need?

Please say hello to Tony and Jonathan for me. Are you guys coming to the Turning Stone next month?

Lyn

Holly said:

Master Scotch Doubles (One Male and One Female)
1 - Only one (1) Grand Master on a Master Scotch Doubles Team
2 - Grand Master must be a league qualified player
3 - Two league players must come from the same state
4 - A Player Member may play with a league qualified Open, Advanced or Master player from the same state (Player Members may not play with a Grand Master)

Click to expand...

Tony plays league?

cardiac kid said:

Hi GG,

Perhaps next year it will be time for our challenge match. I've been hounding Tony to play a scotch doubles match since you beat my partner two years ago on the hill in the singles. Seriously, I don't want to make too big a deal out of it but I thought it might be fun. Tammy and me are an open scotch team. How much weight do you need?

Please say hello to Tony and Jonathan for me. Are you guys coming to the Turning Stone next month?

Lyn

Click to expand...

Hi Lyn! Nice to hear from you again! I'm sure Tony would be down to play anytime -- we are just so happy we get to play together this upcoming year that a challenge match could be a great warm up. Neither of us gamble so I hope that wouldn't cramp your style. Hope you & Tammy are doing well. Tony is going to Turning Stone with Jonathan. I'll be in Europe so I can't go!

Oh and Weight, Smeight!!

Tim -- Tony plays in Amsterdam's Team 9-ball on my team WTF? Amsterdam has a lot of pro players that play in this league. AZ's Steve Lipsky, Ginky, Mika, Zion ... & with Amsterdam sanctioning all their league nights for BCA, many from the Straight Pool League qualify too like Danny Barouty.

GG11 said:

Hi Lyn! Nice to hear from you again! I'm sure Tony would be down to play anytime -- we are just so happy we get to play together this upcoming year that a challenge match could be a great warm up. Neither of us gamble so I hope that wouldn't cramp your style. Hope you & Tammy are doing well. Tony is going to Turning Stone with Jonathan. I'll be in Europe so I can't go!

Oh and Weight, Smeight!!

Tim -- Tony plays in Amsterdam's Team 9-ball on my team WTF? Amsterdam has a lot of pro players that play in this league. AZ's Steve Lipsky, Ginky, Mika, Zion ... & with Amsterdam sanctioning all their league nights for BCA, many from the Straight Pool League qualify too like Danny Barouty.

Click to expand...

That's cool. Nice to see the pros playing league with us duffers.

TimKrazyMon said:

That's cool. Nice to see the pros playing league with us duffers.

Click to expand...

Wait a minute Tim, who you calling a duffer? I resemble that remark:thumbup:!

Lyn

roger.p said:

I also like GG's classy response.

I have a question about the advanced rating when it was arrived at via team mastership. If you achieved advanced status in this manner yet you rarely cash in the open singles (let alone approach the top 64/48/whatever the boundary is) is it possible to petition to be lowered to open status?

Yes. Please send any request / petition for your player rating review to Bill Stock at bill@playcsipool.com

It seems that this may be a little difficult as the individual's "team performance" is not recorded. Also there could be incentive to "underachieve" in the singles to stay eligible to consistently play on an open team. However there is also the case of the non-cashing open player who goes .500 (if not worse) in the team tourny who finds themselves with advanced status which is really unmerited.

We appreciate and understand your point, however that is the reason we have the review and petition process. On the other side the purpose for the Team Master was to try to prevent the "stack team" situation with high rated players who yet never chose to play in singles. Ideally I suspect the most active petition / review group will be the players who were placed on the Team Master list but might not have a singles history.

Those who were moved to the Advanced group from the Team Master designation who have singles history might not be so clear cut. For instance, player "John Doe" in 2004 finished 3rd in the Men's Open Singles, and then in 2005 and 2006 did not cash in the Men's Master Singles. Then between 2007-2010 played on 3 different Mixed Open Teams and in '07 rightfully petitioned to be moved back to the Open Singles division since he played in the Men's Master Singles who years in a row without cashing. He would have been moved back to the Open division as he met the requirements and went throught the process of contacting our office. ok, so now he is back as an Open player, and in those three years ('07-'10) his team in 2008 finishing 128th and his team in 2009 (who had 4 repeating players from year 2008 team) (SORRY STILL WITH ME ...well his 2009 team took 9-12th place. So...all the players from that team now would have be placed on the Team Master list. So now...John is placed on the Advanced list. In his particular review, he would concievably stay on the Advanced singles list. The reason is he cashed very high in the open singles and while he did not cash two years in a row in the Master division, he did not have singles history after that. So he would most likely need to play at least one year in the Advanced before being moved to the Open. John Doe is not a Master player, but there is reasonable argument he is not a true Open level player either.


I understand that you cannot please all the people all the time & that this situation may simply be an unavoidable casualty.

Can you offer any guidance?
The only guidance I can offer is to keep asking any questions you may have. If ever in doubt, please always contact us at CSI either call 702-719-7665, or you can easily reach Mark Griffin, Bill Stock and myself on this forum, a PM or email me at holly@playcsipool.com. We love this sport, made it our lives work for the sole purpose of helping it to grow. We welcome each and every person to contact us and give us their constructive input and ask questions. Also if anyone you know is interested in a review of their rating it is a quick and simple process, but must be via email to Bill.

Holly

Thanks

Roger

Click to expand...

Roger thanks and please see my notes in purple

So what was the problem with Team Master?? Now youv'e got score keepers who were listed on a roster and now called advanced players for singles purposes. Possibly even players who didn't show or play!It just started and now it's a thing of the past.

What is the point of having a GM division? Is this an amateur tournament or pro? It looked like the majority of the same names in the pro & gm events this year.

I can accept the advanced divsion category. I've long said that the majority of open players who finish 33rd - 64th are punished by being rated master. But also playing in VNEA, BCA & BCAPL nationals many times since '92 I have also seen that many strong players who attempt the large open fields sometimes don't make it to the final 96. I just hope that the BCAPL will make adjustments in the future as the current criteria for moving up in singles divisons is flawed.

I still haven't had adequate time to review the team shakeup. Looks promising on intial glances but I'll reserve my $.02 for now.

Firecracker said:

After reviewing again, I was just kinda curious about one big difference between the Mens Advanced and the Womens -

Mixed Advanced Teams (4 person teams / 8 players max on roster)
1 - No Grand Masters.
2 - Only one (1) Master on the roster.
3 - Remainder of roster made up of Open and Advanced Players.
4 - Teams must have at least two (2) original players from their local league team.
5 - Two (2) original players must play in each round.
6 - Additional players may come from any BCAPL sanctioned league in the same state as the team origin.

Women’s Advanced / Master Teams (4 person teams)
1 - Only one (1) Master or Grand Master on the roster.
2 - Remainder of roster made up of Open and Advanced Players.
3 - The Master or Grand Master may come from any BCAPL sanctioned league in the same state as the team origin.
4 - All Advanced and Open Players on the roster must be from the same league.
5 - There is no original player requirement for the Women’s Advanced Teams.

Fielding Women's teams, especially in the smaller areas, has always been difficult, is their any consideration or reason that the Women's Advanced/Masters division could not pull a few additional players from other areas in the state, just like the Men's?

Click to expand...

I'm curious about this, as well. I find it odd that the men can pick from anywhere in the state, but the women can't? I bet you'd get more women's team this way.

Just look at Texas with SO MANY leagues. In the larger cities, where everything is soo spread out, it is difficult for the women to even play in the same league. Let's take DFW for instance. I know some women who drive an hour each way just to make it to the other side of town just to play league with the same people in order to go to Vegas.

Duane Tuula said:

So what was the problem with Team Master?? Now youv'e got score keepers who were listed on a roster and now called advanced players for singles purposes.

Click to expand...

Duane,

My team in Vegas had to be re-formed again this year. Five years ago, the core team finished second in the Open. All eight players were made Team Masters last year. As you mentioned, the score keeper and team sponsor who plays at a B??? level is now a Team Master. Happened to us.

duane tuula said:

What is the point of having a GM division? Is this an amateur tournament or pro? It looked like the majority of the same names in the pro & gm events this year.

Click to expand...

I asked that question last year. The answer. To give the Pro players one more event to attempt to make money in while they're there. If you or I wanted to play in the both the GM and the US 10 Ball, we can do it as well. Just can't play in any other singles events.

duane tuula said:

I can accept the advanced divsion category. I've long said that the majority of open players who finish 33rd - 64th are punished by being rated master.

Click to expand...

My simple math comes up with nearly three hundred former Open players who moved to the Masters since 2005. Add that to the twenty something years of BCA play and you might have a thousand potential players not returning to play in May. This years entries, 126. As I said in an earlier post, joining the Masters is a death sentance for most BCAPL players now! The Advanced division is a good idea. Will it work to our advantage though?

duane tuula said:

I still haven't had adequate time to review the team shakeup. Looks promising on intial glances but I'll reserve my $.02 for now.

Click to expand...

My Open team in Vegas will be restructured again next year. We will lose our Master player. We can keep our current Team Master player and three Open players and stay in the 5 person Mixed Open. We might also consider the 4 person Mixed Advanced. Reviewing the criteria for that division with its "any two BCAPL players from your STATE" makes me nervous. Like you, it's too early to tell which event to play in.

Lyn

Grand Masters

First of all, we appreciate all of your comments. Please kep them coming - but keep an open mind. We did put a lot of thought into this change.

Not sure of the actual number, but around 1,000 advanced players are on the list. Many of these came from the down grading of the Master list. Please check the new lists before jumping to conclusions. There is also the petition process - but be prepared to have logic on your side!

Duane Tuula has made a couple of posts concerning our GM division. The first year or two, the GM started two after the start of all the other singles. This actually allowed eliminated players from other divisons (open and master) to sign up and play in the GM. That was well received.

The pros could not play those years because it conflicted with the Pro event. So all of the GM were either player members or league members.

The year that Matchroom decided to bring their World Pool Masters, we decided to move the GM start time - which would allow the pros to play between the two events (unless they were in the final 4 or so in WPM). This brought a lot of REAL PROS into the GM event.

This was a great treat! BCAPL attendees got to see world champions play 8-ball on 7' tables - the exact same game the amateurs play. The reviews were over the top!!!

The result is that we have quite a few GM players that do NOT play league. A GM player MUST be a league player to play on a team.

BCAPL feels that every player should be able to compete.

The GM devision allows players to 'test' themselves against some of the world's best. It is exciting - it showcases the skills of real champions and it give amateurs the opportunity to watch the very best. Hopefully this will give some players the drive to try and get to the next level.

Keep in mind the GM that came through our singles program are VERY strong players. They had to finish very high in the Masters division - which is NOT an easy job.

Again, thanks for your comment- - - -

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI - BCAPL

So is there a Advanced singles tournament? Or Advanced players must play in the Masters singles?

advanced division

Yes-there is an advanced singles division. It is new.

mark griffin

Mark Griffin said:

Yes-there is an advanced singles division. It is new.

mark griffin

Click to expand...

I like it!

Scotch doubles eligibilty

Thank you for the reply Holly.

What scotch doubles event(s) can an advanced player enter?

roger.p said:

Thank you for the reply Holly.

What scotch doubles event(s) can an advanced player enter?

Click to expand...

http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.php?storynum=7778

Advanced players are eligible to team up to play on the Master Scotch doubles team. above it the link to the original press release from the AZB home page.