Has the quality difference between "custom" and "production" become negligible?

Shawn Armstrong

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
Has the quality difference between "custom" and "production" become negligible?

Having recently took some time off from pool, and getting back into it, I ended up having to look at my cue inventory, and started horsing around with different manufacturers and custom cues. Perhaps, 10-20 years ago, there was a measurable gap between the custom cues, and the production cues available at the time. Now, it seems that the top quality production cues are as good as the custom cues available today.

This isn't a discussion regarding collecting cues. This is purely me observing fit and finish, quality of construction, and repeatability in the way that cues play. Predator is putting out a quality cue with CNC inlays - as good as a lot of the custom CNC guys, at a better price, with better technology. Lucasi is making a very good cue for the money - again, consistent hit, and they're coring their cues, like Predator, which makes for a very consistent hitting butt section. The other thing going for them is that they're available now - replacement shafts can be bought in a pinch, they play the same from shaft to shaft, and you have a multitude of options when choosing a shaft.

I know there are going to be a bunch of guys saying "custom is better", but I guess I'm not seeing that big a difference in the quality "gap" that was once there between custom and production cues. Again, not a smear campaign against the custom cuemakers. They will always have the appeal with a segment of the market. But am I the only one noticing that the quality gap is closing, or has closed? And in particular, the Chinese/Taiwanese manufacturers.

Remember, we're not talking about monster cues, or collector's pieces. We're talking about cues as ball pocketing instruments....
 
ideologist

ideologist

I don't never exaggerate
Silver Member
Many production brands easily exceed custom makers in the fit, finish, and construction departments.

The only point to building a custom cue is offering the custom touches like woods, inlays, design, and specs.

The vast majority of players wouldn't know the difference between two cues with the same wrap if they were blindfolded.
 
JB Cases

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Since about 2008 cues from China and other "foreign" places have achieved the playability level where they can and have been used to consistently win at every level.

Of course before that it is noteworthy to mention that the two brands which have been used to win the most world championships and us opens and other top titles are Cuetec and Meucci. So one can argue that production cues have had the neccesary quality for as long as there have been production cues.

Basically what I have been saying for a long time now is that it's actually hard to buy a bad cue.
 
S

SplicedPoints

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I shot a few balls with a random production cue when I had my tip done the other day. It was a very solid playing cue. The wood and fit & finish was also fairly good. It wasn't even a brand name production.

The fit & finish on some productions like Mezz is probably as good if not better than some customs.
 
Shawn Armstrong

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
I'm not one for being biased when it comes to "made in XXX". It seemed that, as John mentioned, there seemed to be a time when the import cue quality just skyrocketed. I remember the mid 2000s, a Players cue was basically a chunk of junk. Bad shafts, bad ringwork, and joints weren't even matched well, or polished. You even look at the original Lucasi cues that were being made in the early 2000s, and they had popping rings, and just looked a little "cheap". Fast forward to today. The imported Predators, Lucasis and Players lines are actually a great product for the money, and offer exceptional value for what they make. McDermott and Viking have even gone the route of having some offshore cues made, and sold under their Star, Lucky and Valhalla lines.

I was always a "made in North America" guy. After having some issues with warranties with McD and Viking, I tried a Lucasi. I was impressed with the build quality and hit. And, for a cue that was of lesser "price", it is of a higher value, with regards to build quality. I have a Rick Howard and a Barnhart I've been holding onto. Dare I say that the Howard and the Barnhart will be up for sale soon. I'm that impressed.
 
3andstop

3andstop

Focus
Silver Member
You may have seen this video before but think about this if you watch it.

Suppose you were a salesman .... in any business, not necessarily raw cue material sales. You have to call on your clients periodically and take orders from them as they need more materials. Your profit depends on your sales, and your repeat profits likewise depend on your repeat sales.

Now consider, I'm one of your customers. A private custom cue builder who now, after 6 or so months, am ready to order a few hundred dollars worth of materials.

I request you hand pick the best quality for me, and as a good salesman you assure me you will. Naturally you will do your best to pick the best product for me because you want my repeat business of a few hundred dollars.

Now, you go to your next stop .... McDermott cues, or a similar company. they are ready to order again also. They order a few hundred thousand dollars of materials and request the best of your product.

You assure them you will because you want their repeat business.

I'm just curious who's repeat business you value more in terms of your profits? And ... subsequently, who's gonna get that best material you promised? :rolleyes::thumbup:
 
Shawn Armstrong

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
3andstop said:
You may have seen this video before but think about this if you watch it.

Suppose you were a salesman .... in any business, not necessarily raw cue material sales. You have to call on your clients periodically and take orders from them as they need more materials. Your profit depends on your sales, and your repeat profits likewise depend on your repeat sales.

Now consider, I'm one of your customers. A private custom cue builder who now, after 6 or so months, am ready to order a few hundred dollars worth of materials.

I request you hand pick the best quality for me, and as a good salesman you assure me you will. Naturally you will do your best to pick the best product for me because you want my repeat business of a few hundred dollars.

Now, you go to your next stop .... McDermott cues, or a similar company. they are ready to order again also. They order a few hundred thousand dollars of materials and request the best of your product.

You assure them you will because you want their repeat business.

I'm just curious who's repeat business you value more in terms of your profits? And ... subsequently, who's gonna get that best material you promised? :rolleyes::thumbup:
Click to expand...

I'd even take it a step further, and extend it to the machinery used to make those raw materials into a cue. We've gone from the days of being a master machinist, to "may the best computer win", with regards to making cues. Everything is done by CNC now. CNC lathes, CNC milling machines, etc. Predator just made the first commercially available 7 point cue (I've seen one Schuler with 7 points, but that's it). The finishing has become top notch. Shaft quality has become a non issue with laminated woods. Sure, there's still flaws every so often, but you end up getting a replacement shaft in days, rather than sending your cue to the custom shop to have the shaft matched to the butt.

Cored cues were something you saw in custom sticks a decade ago. Now, Mezz is building on laminated cores. Lucasi Hybrids are made with a laminated core, as are the higher end Predators. CNC cut shafts, precision inlays, and shafts with very tight tolerances seem the norm on production cues, now.
 
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slide13

slide13

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When it comes to pure playability, I agree that production cues offer everything a person needs to play at any level.

But, to think that they are matching custom cues on overall quality and wood selection is misguided, in my oppinion. Yes, the big companies could request the very best woods, but I don't think they actually do....at least not on their regular cues (maybe on their super high end ones that reach custom prices). I haven't seen a McDermott cue that has wood to rival a Sugartree, for example.

Also, while fit and finish on CNC cues is pretty consistent, that isn't the only way cues are made in the custom world. Even comparing apples to apples with CNC cues only, if you think the guy earning $12/hr on the production line is going to be as critical as a custom maker who signs his own name on th cue in th end then I think you're mistaken.

Now, that may not have to do purely with playability, but th comments have strayed into implying parity beyond just that. I think a $200 production cue gets you all the playability you need, but there are other differences that can and do matter to some the differentiate the production and custom cue....at least in some cases.
 
cubswin

cubswin

Just call me Joe...
Silver Member
Years ago, no one called them production or custom, at least not in my memory. Just cues, then along came the Internet and suddenly it mattered.

Joss cues were just as popular as Scruggs cues when I started playing, and prices were about the same for example. Was often cheaper to buy a custom for the longest time.
 
9Ballr

9Ballr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"Has the quality difference between "custom" and "production" become negligible?"


Unless you're looking for gaudy stuff it's always been negligible.

Just get a straight cue, get used to it, play it for years and you're gonna
bet 99% of the people out there.
Custom or not.
When it comes to just pure pool playing here is exactly no need for a custom cue.
None whatsoever.
 
Shawn Armstrong

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
JB Cases said:
Whenever this or similar topics come up I like to repost this article.

http://jbcases.com/caseblog/2009/02/22/what-is-the-hit-of-a-pool-cue/
Click to expand...

I'm not even going to go into "hit", or the mystique of "hit". I'm just discussing construction methods, and the end quality of what is coming off the line at the Poison/Predator/Lucasi/Players brands.

I understand the "need" some players have for custom cues. When people are asking about buying a cue on here, typically they are pointed in the direction of buying a "custom cue", as it will be higher quality than a production cue. Meanwhile, we're talking about a guy that has maybe one or two lathes, and perhaps a mill. And he's made maybe 100 cues in the past 4 years. Put that up against a company that has a repeatable process, starting with a laminated core that is thrown on a CNC lathe and cut to within a few thousands of an inch, just like the other 99 cores before it. It goes through 15 other CNC controlled machine processes. A human hand barely touches the cue. Or, we have a cue coming from a garage, and joint sizes can vary by a few hundreds due to hand sanding. We get "taper roll" on a shaft that was done by hand, vs the computer controlled machine that spits out more than 1000 shafts a week. I don't know how the two can even be compared, in terms of precision.
 
mortuarymike-nv

mortuarymike-nv

mortuarymike-nv
Silver Member
How do you know this ?

ideologist said:
Many production brands easily exceed custom makers in the fit, finish, and construction departments.

The only point to building a custom cue is offering the custom touches like woods, inlays, design, and specs.

The vast majority of players wouldn't know the difference between two cues with the same wrap if they were blindfolded.
Click to expand...

No you are not correct,
Normally a custom cue maker uses more of a selected pieces of wood.

But hands down a custom cue maker will sit on the wood for a decade or so before making a cue out of it.
Production cues the wood isn't the best grade, and the wood hasn't been drying for decades

What is your choice of shaft wood. the wood that is 90 days old or shaft wood that been being naturally dried or cured for 10 or 20 years.
Same as the wood used in the butt of the cue,
You want wood that is going to move or the wood that has been stabilized for a decade?


And then there is the plastic crap.
The other day I removed a 8.5 oz weight bolt out of a McDermott.

Plastic handle plastic butt sleeve, I have never seen a cue that needs a 8.5 oz weight bolt... In my entire life
 
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Rico

Rico

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
custom vs production

Didnt know rings popped i thought the wood shrunk. I hope people buying ***** foreign cues make the same wages.
 
JB Cases

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Not all "custom" makers season their wood properly or construct their cues properly. At one time I had inventory of several hundred cues that traveled to tournaments around the world.

Will not name names but brand new cues going through the same climates coast to coast and over the ocean would react vastly differently. Some would not move at all while others would need a refinish by the end of the journey and some could be used as bows.

Fittingly for this topic back in the 90s I had a well known usa production maker come to my room to evaluate some usa made custom cues offered to me in trade. This maker went through with little arrow stickers and marked up the cues with all the flaws. Each cue looked like it had a bad case of Office Depot Measles when he was done.

After that we got a ridiculous price on the custom cues which made the trade somewhat bearable.
 
JoeyInCali

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Shawn Armstrong said:
I'm not even going to go into "hit", or the mystique of "hit". I'm just discussing construction methods, and the end quality of what is coming off the line at the Poison/Predator/Lucasi/Players brands.

I understand the "need" some players have for custom cues. When people are asking about buying a cue on here, typically they are pointed in the direction of buying a "custom cue", as it will be higher quality than a production cue. Meanwhile, we're talking about a guy that has maybe one or two lathes, and perhaps a mill. And he's made maybe 100 cues in the past 4 years. Put that up against a company that has a repeatable process, starting with a laminated core that is thrown on a CNC lathe and cut to within a few thousands of an inch, just like the other 99 cores before it. It goes through 15 other CNC controlled machine processes. A human hand barely touches the cue. Or, we have a cue coming from a garage, and joint sizes can vary by a few hundreds due to hand sanding. We get "taper roll" on a shaft that was done by hand, vs the computer controlled machine that spits out more than 1000 shafts a week. I don't know how the two can even be compared, in terms of precision.
Click to expand...
Have you been to a custom maker's shop?
I do not know anyone here who hand tapers shafts.
Everyone is using a taper bar or cnc.
Laminated cores are supposed to be better?
They're cheap and readily available to anyone.
 
JB Cases

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
JoeyInCali said:
Have you been to a custom maker's shop?
I do not know anyone here who hand tapers shafts.
Everyone is using a taper bar or cnc.
Laminated cores are supposed to be better?
They're cheap and readily available to anyone.
Click to expand...

And as far as I know all pantograph templates were made by CNC router.

No one throws wood in one end and a cue pops out the other end.
 
Shawn Armstrong

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
JoeyInCali said:
Have you been to a custom maker's shop?
I do not know anyone here who hand tapers shafts.
Everyone is using a taper bar or cnc.
Laminated cores are supposed to be better?
They're cheap and readily available to anyone.
Click to expand...

Keith Josey uses laminated cores. So does Cory Barnhart. But, what do they know, right?
 
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