Diamond vs.

Palmerfan

AzB Gold Member
Silver Member
I wasnt sure if this belonged in the "mechanic" section..it looked like those posts were very technical and mechanic to mechanic related. My question for people who have tables or know the table industry well is this:

Diamond tables seem to be "the gold standard" for tournaments and exhibition matches..etc, and no doubt they are excellent tables. I would like to know if a mechanic built an Olhausen or GC with the exact same specs..(rails, shim, facings, cloth,one piece slate) every conceivable thing the same as a Diamond, would the Diamond play any better or be preferred over the other tables if everything was the same? I know a ton of wood is used on all Diamonds (enough to make 100 cues is what I heard) but simply from a play standpoint, not looks, If everything is the same what makes Diamond the better product? Or is it.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
presuming all was the 'same' there would not be a difference...at least, not a perceptible one.

The slate shelf would be the most obvious difference, IMO.

The matter has been discussed often before. by the time you put the $into Diamondizing the other, you'd have spent whawt it cost to buy the Diamond...and you still wouldn't have a Diamond.
 

Maxx

AzB Platinum Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
presuming all was the 'same' there would not be a difference...at least, not a perceptible one.

The slate shelf would be the most obvious difference, IMO.

The matter has been discussed often before. by the time you put the $into Diamondizing the other, you'd have spent whawt it cost to buy the Diamond...and you still wouldn't have a Diamond.

Unless you have an old Diamond, then you don't have a new Diamond, unless you diamondize your old diamond into a new Diamond???
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
Well if you built another table where EVERYthing is the exact same specs,
then what you've built is a diamond with a different name plate attached to it.
And it would play exactly like a diamond. Then the company that made that table would get sued.

How about we rephrase your question: what would a non-diamond table need,
to make it very very "diamond-like"?

Three things come to mind (ignoring looks, ignoring under-the-hood mechanic stuff):

1. The pocket cut - 4.5" at the front and I think 4.25 or 4 at the back. Plus the shelf.
They're a little tighter than average but fair.

2. Boingy rails. I dunno the exact make and model but diamond rails play different than
the various flavors of gold crown out there. Seeing the cue ball do those little
swooping dips after contact with each rail is part of the 'diamond experience'.

3. Bright blue tightly stretched simonis 860.
Just a cosmetic thing, lots of tables use simonis 860,
but for some reason it wouldn't feel like a diamond if you made the cloth green.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm not a mechanic, just a hobbiest with a serous interest in different tables.

You can replace the cushions and modify the wood rails so they are the same specification as a new Diamond. (Although many people prefer the GC specification and the way the ball rebounds off its rails). If you did this, and the pocket adjustments at the same time, the tables would play much closer.

I think the biggest difference comes from the mass of the table, that can't reasonably be modified. When you bump into a GC, the balls can jiggle a little bit. When you bump into a Diamond, your leg will hurt, and the balls won't budge. I think this can lead to a generally more consistent table. To take this to a further level, Carom tables have much more mass and thicker slates, so they will be more stable during play, and be more consistent.

Another major difference between Diamond (recent ones) and GC's is the slate being 1 piece, inherently makes the leveling of the table more likely to be such that balls don't roll off. Of course, there are TONS of GC's with level slates, but the 1 piece design should have the edge there.

I visited the Diamond factory, and the way they have their tables designed is flat out better. For example, the rails and pockets are all aligned and preassembled at the factory, and then pinned into place with dowels. Then disassembled for shipping and/or installation. Now, when a mechanic puts the table together, it will go together flush. Contrast this with a GC, even a new GC5, and you will see the metal of the pockets are all over the place in height with respect to the rails, even on the same table.

Diamonds wood rails are made of a strips of wood laminated together to make a more substantial structure than a 1 piece wood rail.

Its really a combination of all these little things and more like them, that make a Diamond the table it is.

Disclaimer, I still think I like the way the CB comes off the stock GC cushion, but that is a personal preference.
 

oldroller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm not a mechanic, just a hobbiest with a serous interest in different tables.

You can replace the cushions and modify the wood rails so they are the same specification as a new Diamond. (Although many people prefer the GC specification and the way the ball rebounds off its rails). If you did this, and the pocket adjustments at the same time, the tables would play much closer.

I think the biggest difference comes from the mass of the table, that can't reasonably be modified. When you bump into a GC, the balls can jiggle a little bit. When you bump into a Diamond, your leg will hurt, and the balls won't budge. I think this can lead to a generally more consistent table. To take this to a further level, Carom tables have much more mass and thicker slates, so they will be more stable during play, and be more consistent.

Another major difference between Diamond (recent ones) and GC's is the slate being 1 piece, inherently makes the leveling of the table more likely to be such that balls don't roll off. Of course, there are TONS of GC's with level slates, but the 1 piece design should have the edge there.

I visited the Diamond factory, and the way they have their tables designed is flat out better. For example, the rails and pockets are all aligned and preassembled at the factory, and then pinned into place with dowels. Then disassembled for shipping and/or installation. Now, when a mechanic puts the table together, it will go together flush. Contrast this with a GC, even a new GC5, and you will see the metal of the pockets are all over the place in height with respect to the rails, even on the same table.

Diamonds wood rails are made of a strips of wood laminated together to make a more substantial structure than a 1 piece wood rail.

Its really a combination of all these little things and more like them, that make a Diamond the table it is.

Disclaimer, I still think I like the way the CB comes off the stock GC cushion, but that is a personal preference.

They must have built my GC l a little heavy!I would hate to have to try to bump it hard enough to move the balls.
 

JimS

Grandpa & his grand boys.
Silver Member
My buddy had his BigG Gandy "Diamondized" by Glenn. It plays great.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
I wasnt sure if this belonged in the "mechanic" section..it looked like those posts were very technical and mechanic to mechanic related. My question for people who have tables or know the table industry well is this:

Diamond tables seem to be "the gold standard" for tournaments and exhibition matches..etc, and no doubt they are excellent tables. I would like to know if a mechanic built an Olhausen or GC with the exact same specs..(rails, shim, facings, cloth,one piece slate) every conceivable thing the same as a Diamond, would the Diamond play any better or be preferred over the other tables if everything was the same? I know a ton of wood is used on all Diamonds (enough to make 100 cues is what I heard) but simply from a play standpoint, not looks, If everything is the same what makes Diamond the better product? Or is it.

Well, to answer your question, you'd have to be kind of matching apples to apples, as in how dense the rail contruction is, how thick the sub-rails are, how solid the frame is, how the rails are bolted to the slate, so that pretty much eliminates a lot of tables that can be built to play close to that of a Diamond. Olhausen's can't, as well as many of the home table desiged tables. Gold Crowns are very close, but need a lot of custom upgrading to get real close, but there's certain things that will still hold back a Gold Crown, as in even if you matched the pocket angles to that of a Diamond, the slate shelf on a GC is going to be much more shallower compared to a Diamond. For example, with both tables having the same pocket spec's, the Diamond is going to hold in about 55-60% of the ball in the jaws of the pocket, whereas the GC is only going to hold in about 40-45% of the ball, that's a big difference when it comes to a ball rolling to a stop in the pocket.

So, to be fair in answering your question, it all depends on what you have to work with, and who's doing the work, and what kind of understanding the person doing the work has when it comes to trying to build a pool table to play like a Diamond.

Glen
 

JC

Coos Cues
I'm not a mechanic, just a hobbiest with a serous interest in different tables.

You can replace the cushions and modify the wood rails so they are the same specification as a new Diamond. (Although many people prefer the GC specification and the way the ball rebounds off its rails). If you did this, and the pocket adjustments at the same time, the tables would play much closer.

I think the biggest difference comes from the mass of the table, that can't reasonably be modified. When you bump into a GC, the balls can jiggle a little bit. When you bump into a Diamond, your leg will hurt, and the balls won't budge. I think this can lead to a generally more consistent table. To take this to a further level, Carom tables have much more mass and thicker slates, so they will be more stable during play, and be more consistent.

Another major difference between Diamond (recent ones) and GC's is the slate being 1 piece, inherently makes the leveling of the table more likely to be such that balls don't roll off. Of course, there are TONS of GC's with level slates, but the 1 piece design should have the edge there.

I visited the Diamond factory, and the way they have their tables designed is flat out better. For example, the rails and pockets are all aligned and preassembled at the factory, and then pinned into place with dowels. Then disassembled for shipping and/or installation. Now, when a mechanic puts the table together, it will go together flush. Contrast this with a GC, even a new GC5, and you will see the metal of the pockets are all over the place in height with respect to the rails, even on the same table.

Diamonds wood rails are made of a strips of wood laminated together to make a more substantial structure than a 1 piece wood rail.

Its really a combination of all these little things and more like them, that make a Diamond the table it is.

Disclaimer, I still think I like the way the CB comes off the stock GC cushion, but that is a personal preference.

I always thought it was easier to make a small piece of slate flat than a bigger one which was an advantage to three pieces for a perfect finished surface if leveled and mated properly. Maybe modern grinding techniques have changed this. I may be wrong but I figured diamond went with a one piece slate on the big tables to enable them to move them around to events intact without the joints shifting more than for their inherent leveling advantage. I know they didn't do it for Chris "basement dweller" to have one hauled down the stairs..:smile:
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I always thought it was easier to make a small piece of slate flat than a bigger one which was an advantage to three pieces for a perfect finished surface if leveled and mated properly. Maybe modern grinding techniques have changed this. I may be wrong but I figured diamond went with a one piece slate on the big tables to enable them to move them around to events intact without the joints shifting more than for their inherent leveling advantage. I know they didn't do it for Chris "basement dweller" to have one hauled down the stairs..:smile:

Again not a mechanic just a hobbiest...

The 3 piece slates are all ground to final flatness in the same operation side by side. That is why the circular grinding pattern is continuous from one piece of slate to the next, and what makes the slates on a table a matched set.

So the 1 piece slate is ground in the same machine. I believe it's called Blanchard grinding, which for example is how the top of a cast iron tablesaw is ground flat.

So the manufacturing process of the grinding is the same hence the overall flatness tolerance should be about the same, when the slates leave the factory.

In my non mechanic opinion the greatest benefit in final flatness for play would come from no seams to line up.
 

JC

Coos Cues
Again not a mechanic just a hobbiest...

The 3 piece slates are all ground to final flatness in the same operation side by side. That is why the circular grinding pattern is continuous from one piece of slate to the next, and what makes the slates on a table a matched set.

So the 1 piece slate is ground in the same machine. I believe it's called Blanchard grinding, which for example is how the top of a cast iron tablesaw is ground flat.

So the manufacturing process of the grinding is the same hence the overall flatness tolerance should be about the same, when the slates leave the factory.

In my non mechanic opinion the greatest benefit in final flatness for play would come from no seams to line up.

I guess what I meant it three smaller pieces have a better chance of staying flat over the years than one big one. Seams are a non issue when using proven techniques for aligning them.

JC
 

44Runner

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I still love a GC. It is my favorite table of all time. Every time I see one I get weak in the knees :p. They are just beautiful in my opinion.

That being said, I own a Diamond. I unfortunately don't have room for a 9 foot table so I got an 8. I am jealous of people that have room for a 9 foot table and I am extra jealous of anyone that has a GC that has been worked over by Glenn or someone on that level. Seems like that is the best there is to me. I know in my head the Diamonds are the best but my heart still loves those GCs.
 

jackflash

Jackflash
Adaptability

In my humble opinion. We as players should focus on adapting to the different tables. Not what it would take to make them the same. Focus on the things you can control.:cool:
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
I still love a GC. It is my favorite table of all time. Every time I see one I get weak in the knees :p. They are just beautiful in my opinion.

That being said, I own a Diamond. I unfortunately don't have room for a 9 foot table so I got an 8. I am jealous of people that have room for a 9 foot table and I am extra jealous of anyone that has a GC that has been worked over by Glenn or someone on that level. Seems like that is the best there is to me. I know in my head the Diamonds are the best but my heart still loves those GCs.

Kind of like this thread, best of both worlds:D

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=301075
 
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