Fargorate: Winner rewarded or loser punished

9BallKY

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’ve often wondered if the winner is rewarded for good play or if the loser is punished for not so good play

For example I only have about 40 games in the system and only a preliminary rating. This past weekend I played in a tournament that will go into fargorate. I played 2 players, the first one was established and rated 9 points below me. I won that set 11-5. The second player had a rating 8 points higher than mine. I won that set 7-1.

My question is when two players are close in rating but the score of a set is one sided does the winner get credit for playing good or is the loser punished for playing bad?

I know fargorate only gets the data that is turned in. However the player rated 8 points higher than me has never beat me. I’ve played him 3 times lately and he hasn’t gotten past 2 games yet. The first set I won 5-2 the second set was in a handicapped tourney where I was giving him the 8 ball. I won that set 5-1. Then the set this past weekend where I won 7-1. For a total score of 17-4.
 

MattPoland

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I expect you’ll move aggressively as it finds your proper place. Especially as your rating is not established.

Between two established players, minor rating adjustments happen to both players when you exceed (or fail to live up to) the expected outcome.

Also note, an 8 or 9 point difference is pretty much even in Fargo ratings.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I’ve often wondered if the winner is rewarded for good play or if the loser is punished for not so good play....
As mentioned already, it's a little more complicated than that.

Your first opponent will not move much even though he performed far below expectations because he is established and six excess losses is not many compared to how many games he has already played. (I'm guessing player 2 is not established.)

Let us know how many you move. I'll guess 15 points.
 

fathomblue

Rusty Shackleford
Silver Member
I didn't think results from matches with balls being spotted were counted in FargoRate. I may be mis-remembering, however.
 

mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I didn't think results from matches with balls being spotted were counted in FargoRate. I may be mis-remembering, however.

I thing for the 8-ball spot match, he's just mentioning another time he faced the same opponent
 

9BallKY

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As mentioned already, it's a little more complicated than that.


Let us know how many you move. I'll guess 15 points.



I’m not really concerned with how much my rating changes the question was just a general question because I’ve seen pros with close to the same rating lose or win with a one sided score.
 

JolietJames

Boot Party Coordinator
Silver Member
I don't understand why you are considering the outcomes to be rewards and punishments. Your rating is not like your credit score. Of course some tournaments do charge different entry fees based on a player's rating.

Once enough data is entered, a player will actually have to outplay his opponent (or get the majority of the rolls), to win. The only downside to Fargo I can see is that lower players have a reference guide on their phones and no shame to ask for weight these days.
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
Don't think of Fargo as a single number that says "this is exactly how good this player shoots,
every single hour of every single day".

Think of it as the middle number in a range - A fargo 650 may have a dozen tournaments where he shoots
like a 600, and another dozen where he shoots like a 700, and "650" is how we boil down that fact
into a single, easy to read number.

Pool also has some luck that can make a score lopsided even if you played exactly like you're supposed to.
The only way to iron out that luck is to have tons of games in the Fargo system, to make up for the fact
that you sometimes just catch bad rolls the whole set or get run out by the opponent several times.
 

alphadog

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Don't think of Fargo as a single number that says "this is exactly how good this player shoots,
every single hour of every single day".

Think of it as the middle number in a range - A fargo 650 may have a dozen tournaments where he shoots
like a 600, and another dozen where he shoots like a 700, and "650" is how we boil down that fact
into a single, easy to read number.

Pool also has some luck that can make a score lopsided even if you played exactly like you're supposed to.
The only way to iron out that luck is to have tons of games in the Fargo system, to make up for the fact
that you sometimes just catch bad rolls the whole set or get run out by the opponent several times.

This should go in every thread about fargorate.:smile:
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Don't think of Fargo as a single number that says "this is exactly how good this player shoots,
every single hour of every single day".

Think of it as the middle number in a range - A fargo 650 may have a dozen tournaments where he shoots
like a 600, and another dozen where he shoots like a 700, and "650" is how we boil down that fact
into a single, easy to read number.

Pool also has some luck that can make a score lopsided even if you played exactly like you're supposed to.
The only way to iron out that luck is to have tons of games in the Fargo system, to make up for the fact
that you sometimes just catch bad rolls the whole set or get run out by the opponent several times.
Good post.

The up and down nature of the game is clear from the original system for nine ball stats, Pat Fleming's Accu-Stats that gave a Total Performance Average. In one tournament you might see a single player have match TPAs from 800 to 950. Mr. 800 would lose badly to Mr. 950 even though they are the same person.
 

DecentShot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’ve often wondered if the winner is rewarded for good play or if the loser is punished for not so good play

For example I only have about 40 games in the system and only a preliminary rating. This past weekend I played in a tournament that will go into fargorate. I played 2 players, the first one was established and rated 9 points below me. I won that set 11-5. The second player had a rating 8 points higher than mine. I won that set 7-1.

My question is when two players are close in rating but the score of a set is one sided does the winner get credit for playing good or is the loser punished for playing bad?

I know fargorate only gets the data that is turned in. However the player rated 8 points higher than me has never beat me. I’ve played him 3 times lately and he hasn’t gotten past 2 games yet. The first set I won 5-2 the second set was in a handicapped tourney where I was giving him the 8 ball. I won that set 5-1. Then the set this past weekend where I won 7-1. For a total score of 17-4.

I find it interesting the tournament was ignoring Fargo for the tournament, deduced from the fact that you had to give the lower rated player weight. Fargo rate is a little like Football rankings (especially college.) Usually Fargo matches the "eye test" which is impressive, but there are always anomalies.
 

MattPoland

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Good post.



The up and down nature of the game is clear from the original system for nine ball stats, Pat Fleming's Accu-Stats that gave a Total Performance Average. In one tournament you might see a single player have match TPAs from 800 to 950. Mr. 800 would lose badly to Mr. 950 even though they are the same person.


That’s why it’s worth acknowledging what these things are.

Something like Billiards University is a measure of your skill. TPA is a measure of your performance. FargoRate is a measure of your outcomes.

Even though skill informs your performances which informs your outcomes, these concepts are separate and so are their measures.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

9BallKY

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I find it interesting the tournament was ignoring Fargo for the tournament, deduced from the fact that you had to give the lower rated player weight. Fargo rate is a little like Football rankings (especially college.) Usually Fargo matches the "eye test" which is impressive, but there are always anomalies.

The tournament where I was giving up weight was not based on fargorate. Even though the player has a Fargo rating 8 points higher than mine ( both of us have very few games in the system) everybody that knows us both knows that I play somewhat better than him and this is the reason I was giving him weight.

He is just below a 600 preliminary rating and I think he should be about 20 points higher as he gets more games in the system.
 

9BallKY

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't understand why you are considering the outcomes to be rewards and punishments. Your rating is not like your credit score. Of course some tournaments do charge different entry fees based on a player's rating.

Once enough data is entered, a player will actually have to outplay his opponent (or get the majority of the rolls), to win. The only downside to Fargo I can see is that lower players have a reference guide on their phones and no shame to ask for weight these days.

That was just my way of wording it.
 

DecentShot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The tournament where I was giving up weight was not based on fargorate. Even though the player has a Fargo rating 8 points higher than mine ( both of us have very few games in the system) everybody that knows us both knows that I play somewhat better than him and this is the reason I was giving him weight.

He is just below a 600 preliminary rating and I think he should be about 20 points higher as he gets more games in the system.

Right, and my thing is, if everybody knows it, shouldn't Fargo? I know "robustness" is the main factor, but after 45 games of watching you, I would know just like the guys you play with know, who is really better. Maybe Fargo can't adjust that fast, which is a bummer.
 

KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As I understand it, “rewarding the winner” and “punishing the loser” are essentially two sides of the same coin. Given the ratings of the two players, there is an expected outcome. If one player exceeds that expectation, then the other player must have come up short of the expectation, and both ratings will adjust accordingly.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 

9BallKY

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Right, and my thing is, if everybody knows it, shouldn't Fargo? I know "robustness" is the main factor, but after 45 games of watching you, I would know just like the guys you play with know, who is really better. Maybe Fargo can't adjust that fast, which is a bummer.

Fargo only gets the information that is entered. Me and the other player only live about 50 miles apart so we play several of the same tournaments. The catch is none of them are turned into fargorate. If you looked up mine and his rating it will show we are from Tennessee but we both live in central KY. I don’t know of any tournaments in KY that uses fargorate. I’ve played all over the state and haven’t seen a fargorated tournament yet.
 

DecentShot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Fargo only gets the information that is entered. Me and the other player only live about 50 miles apart so we play several of the same tournaments. The catch is none of them are turned into fargorate. If you looked up mine and his rating it will show we are from Tennessee but we both live in central KY. I don’t know of any tournaments in KY that uses fargorate. I’ve played all over the state and haven’t seen a fargorated tournament yet.

Cool, nice info, thanks.
 
Top