Did you think playing Bergman 10 ball was harder than playing the 10 ball ghost?
I have my theory but would like to hear your thoughts first.
I have my theory but would like to hear your thoughts first.
2019 AZB Ghost Challenge - Official Thread
- Thread starter iusedtoberich
- Start date
Yes. The pressure of playing a champion even on a live stream aside, the game itself was tougher because I’m at least going to break playing the ghost. I think Justin only missed one ball the whole set. Don’t get me wrong, I had chances...dry breaks and such. Just couldn’t make good with them. But he did play great, as expected.
Thanks for the response.
I misstated my question. If you were playing Justin where you got all the breaks and ball in hand afterwards (even if you didn't pocket a ball), do you think that would be easier than playing the ghost?
I know the answer "should" be yes, as Justin can make a mistake. But I'm thinking from a psychological standpoint, the amateur player would break down watching the pro fire in ball after ball, and perform worst in this case vs a standard ghost session. And you also have to figure there will be a crowd watching since the pro is playing. Thought?
You weren't asking me but, I've got a little experience with it playing a several pros over the last ~3 years.
My comparison is:
I've bet the rail I would beat the 10 ball ghost for "x" amount. With BIH after break.
Well, I've played several pros even and I have to say, it's a little less stressful if you know you can shoot a safe if you get out of line. Add to that, you may get lucky and get safe on a missed ball.
Some may think the pro is harder to beat because of the mental aspect that may be true for some...especially if their not use to the pressure.
Thing is, if your use to gambling with the rail against the ghost in public for enough to matter, you shouldn't get shook playing a pro.
To me, I would think the bet is what would control that issue more than who your playing.
I'm use to playing the ghost for ~$50 sets. If i had to face a pro with BIH I would be fine as long as I stay in "my" comfort zone.
I know for a fact, that if I let the bet get out of my comfort zone....I'm dead in the water.
Jeff>>>>>>>> plays good for cheap but, falls apart for real money.
I would say yes, easier. Mainly because I would start every rack in complete control with options, whereas just playing even with guys like that....it’s hard to wrestle the table away from them. Once they get control, they tend to want to keep that momentum rolling. It’s impossible to build any momentum giving up break/BIH.
I played a pro some years ago even on the bar table and he beat me (of course). What was interesting to me was I told him I’d run it back with break/BIH and he flat out refused...absolutely not. Keep in mind, we know each other personally. It’s not like he doesn’t know how I play. He was willing to give up ball weight, even a couple of games on the wire, but seemed to actually get offended when I said he could keep the ball weight and games on the wire if I could get the break and BIH. I can’t remember his exact words but he said something like, “Hell no. Do you think I’m stupid!?” And that was the end of that conversation.
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I agree.
I had much rather play a pro in 9 and 10 ball with the breaks and BIH vs playing the ghost. The ghost NEVER misses a ball but, pros do. They don't miss often but, rarely is more often than NEVER. That rarely missed ball gives you another opportunity in the same game that you don't get with the ghost. Sure, it may be a kick or bank but, it's a shot.
I've had this conversation with others. The majority of them disagreed. Then again, most of the ones that disagreed aren't able to beat the ghost more often than not with a little something on the line.
IMO, a good test is to go to a room that has tables and conditions that are very similar to what you are use to and challenge the rail in ghost races. Make sure the bet is enough to matter but, not enough to shake you.....everyone is different in betting department.
Me?...I fold like a cheap suit if the bet gets out of the dirt. As long as the bet is very modest I'm the favorite by a good margin in 9 ball. In 10 ball, I'm still the favorite but, it's a smaller margin, especially with wooden racks. With templates, my win % goes up and IMO, it should.
Jeff
Yesterday, I did play "Perfect Form" Ghost match. Really hard way of putting your stroke practice in real life stress situation. I have been trying to complete that match with decent outcome few times. Always giving up before end. That is because the immense focus that one need to complete match..
Played my match only race to 5 because I know how exhausting way this is.
Anyways won set 5-2 with pretty solid play. I am really happy about this and going to continue this kind of Ghost matches. Probably only races to 3 or 4 because it is so tiring. Maybe it is getting easier and I can start doing longer matches later.
Link to vid : https://youtu.be/c1juE9d8IKs
Played my match only race to 5 because I know how exhausting way this is.
Anyways won set 5-2 with pretty solid play. I am really happy about this and going to continue this kind of Ghost matches. Probably only races to 3 or 4 because it is so tiring. Maybe it is getting easier and I can start doing longer matches later.
Link to vid : https://youtu.be/c1juE9d8IKs
Great job!!!
Bottom line:
QUALITY
-----------------
quantity
As you know, one hour of play that is truly connected to what matters (everything behind the CB) is worth more than ten hours of beating the ghost to death while...."just playing" (putting most all of our attention in front of the CB).
It's not if we can beat the ghost. It's how we beat the ghost. The how is not about the score. Instead, it's all about approaching the table.......PSR.........to watching the OB travel shortly after being struck by the CB.
What you are doing is next level. Meaning it's the way to practice to get to the next level..... After all, we WILL play the way we practice.
Good job sir,
Jeff
EDIT:
A friend sent me a PM letting me know that I made it sound like beating the ghost was easy and no big accomplishment for the players that struggle to beat the ghost.
To be clear....I wasn't implying that beating the ghost was an easy thing to do. Matter of fact, anyone less than a weak shortstop will have a hard time beating the ghost on 5 out of 10 attempts on equipment thats well maintained and not considered to easy..say....~4.5" pockets (or smaller) and on a 9' table (or larger).
IMO...Most amateurs do good to beat the ghost (for example...9 ball, magic rack, 1 on spot, BIH after break...9' table, 4.5" corner) 1 or 2 times out of 10 tries in races to ~7. Races in the 9 to 11 range get a little harder to win. Races to 15 thru 21 or so takes yet another level of skill. Races above that....well...only top players will pull it off depending on the table, which game and rules.
But, once a player does get to that level, as poolmanis is finding, it gets harder and harder to improve, which is why he has decided to try and play "perfect pool" in the sense that his mechanics etc...etc behind the CB are dialed in.
It's funny. The better a player gets, the more they rely on fundamentals (everything behind the CB). Whereas, the less skill the player has, the more attention he will put on things in front of the CB.
Jeff
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Great video and great playing. What is a "Perfect Form" ghost match? How does it differ from just playing the ghost?
Until he comments, I'm 99% positive he was speaking about:
Holding concentration throughout the entire match, instead of drifting in and out and end up taking a shot or position for granted which will always end up being a downhill slide to defeat.
By keeping focus where it needs to be, he is able to approach the table, fall into stance, go through his PSR and then stay down on the ball as he finishes his follow through which can and will put him in a better position to improve.
It could mean other parts as well.
Jeff
My focus is to try only focus to keep my stroke mechanics perfect as possible.
Everything else is secondary. It is easy to do when not playing, but when you try to win it is harder to keep your "form" in place.
I first practice shots just with cueball, Shooting all 15 balls in without object ball, Then I can purely focus to mechanics and all little details-
After some time I add straight in object ball,.. and after some time I try shoot some easy drill. Maybe line up or something. Finally I go for Game practice while trying to keep same form what I had on first step.
I had Idea for this kinda practice way from Japanese document. It was about bow and shooting it while horseback..
In document can be seen how important it is to keep form while under pressure.
https://youtu.be/ZnRX_Cqhwb8?t=716
Here is how they practice to keeping form.
and here they are in real challenge
https://youtu.be/ZnRX_Cqhwb8?t=1062
I teach also so I try and test stuff myself so I know if it good enough way to bring to students. That is why I do this kinda stuff. Playing and practicing myself is secondary goal
All scores updated. We are at 37 submissions for the year with 2 weeks left. Can we hit 40???? 45????
Ghost Challenge Triathlon Race to 5 in 10-Ball, 8-Ball & 9-Ball
I decided to try and beat the ghost in 3 back to back matches so I decided to play a race to 5 in 10-Ball, BIH after break, 8-Ball no BIH & 9-Ball BIH after break.
I defeated the ghost in all 3 matches.
10-Ball Win 5-3 BIH
8-Ball Win 5-2 No BIH
9-Ball Win 5-1 BIH
Hope you enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO-aLOXP0H8&feature=youtu.be
I decided to try and beat the ghost in 3 back to back matches so I decided to play a race to 5 in 10-Ball, BIH after break, 8-Ball no BIH & 9-Ball BIH after break.
I defeated the ghost in all 3 matches.
10-Ball Win 5-3 BIH
8-Ball Win 5-2 No BIH
9-Ball Win 5-1 BIH
Hope you enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO-aLOXP0H8&feature=youtu.be
Merry Christmas everyone!!!
Thought I’d get in a little ghost practice tonight since I probably won’t be able to play again until the new year.
4-7 loss again against the pro 9-ball ghost. I didn’t bother editing it so there might be a few bad words here and there. I dunno I didn’t watch it.
https://youtu.be/vbhZ6BcDI-w
Thought I’d get in a little ghost practice tonight since I probably won’t be able to play again until the new year.
4-7 loss again against the pro 9-ball ghost. I didn’t bother editing it so there might be a few bad words here and there. I dunno I didn’t watch it.
https://youtu.be/vbhZ6BcDI-w
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Side Pocket
&
Pepper
Good shooting fellas. Keep posting vids. I enjoy watching them.
Some people "think" watching amateurs play is a mistake or waste of time. Well, I've not just watched your average pro but, played many of them and IMO, watching an amateur can be every bit as beneficial as watching a pro....if you know what to look for. Watch enough and it can sink in.
It's like this:
Put 30 students in a room with the same instruction. 3 or 4 of those 30 will go far while the others fall short.
It's not the instructors fault that only 3 or 4 of the 30 succeeded. Just like its not his actions that made the 3 or 4 great.....
We make our own success. Sure, it's a lot easier when someone (a pro or a coach) leads us to water and then throws us in but, if we are thirsty enough....well, we will hunt the water hole down and then drink all we can hold....all on our own.
Again, good job sirs and Merry Christmas,
Jeff
&
Pepper
Good shooting fellas. Keep posting vids. I enjoy watching them.
Some people "think" watching amateurs play is a mistake or waste of time. Well, I've not just watched your average pro but, played many of them and IMO, watching an amateur can be every bit as beneficial as watching a pro....if you know what to look for. Watch enough and it can sink in.
It's like this:
Put 30 students in a room with the same instruction. 3 or 4 of those 30 will go far while the others fall short.
It's not the instructors fault that only 3 or 4 of the 30 succeeded. Just like its not his actions that made the 3 or 4 great.....
We make our own success. Sure, it's a lot easier when someone (a pro or a coach) leads us to water and then throws us in but, if we are thirsty enough....well, we will hunt the water hole down and then drink all we can hold....all on our own.
Again, good job sirs and Merry Christmas,
Jeff
Merry Christmas! Glad you enjoy the challenges. I'll be posting more soon.
Good work all. Latest videos added to first post.
I have the 2020 thread ready to go I'll post it on the 31st, with a link to it in this thread.
In an effort to simplify the readability (and editing) of the score post, I'm moving 8 ball regular, 8 ball pro, and 10 ball pro versions to the "other ghost" section. I checked them in all the years past, and rarely anyone plays them.
9 ball regular, 9 ball pro, and 10 ball regular are our bread and butter participation.
I will also be changing the reporting format to have each player's best score, and their prior lower scores on the same line. The ranking will be by best score. This is how the straight pool section does it, and it will make updating the thread for me easier.
I'll post it on the 31st, with a link to it in this thread.In an effort to simplify the readability (and editing) of the score post, I'm moving 8 ball regular, 8 ball pro, and 10 ball pro versions to the "other ghost" section. I checked them in all the years past, and rarely anyone plays them.
9 ball regular, 9 ball pro, and 10 ball regular are our bread and butter participation.
I will also be changing the reporting format to have each player's best score, and their prior lower scores on the same line. The ranking will be by best score. This is how the straight pool section does it, and it will make updating the thread for me easier.
I have the 2020 thread ready to go
In an effort to simplify the readability (and editing) of the score post, I'm moving 8 ball regular, 8 ball pro, and 10 ball pro versions to the "other ghost" section. I checked them in all the years past, and rarely anyone plays them.
9 ball regular, 9 ball pro, and 10 ball regular are our bread and butter participation.
I will also be changing the reporting format to have each player's best score, and their prior lower scores on the same line. The ranking will be by best score. This is how the straight pool section does it, and it will make updating the thread for me easier.
I, like everyone else on here really appreciate everything you do for the challenge thread. Not to mention, all the valuable nformation you share in the other forums. Especially the projector and light project you've been sharing. I'm certain that you are helping some make the decision on whether or not to go with a projector. Not to mention, which brand and "how" to best set it up. Again, you've done an awesome job...thanks a TON!!!
Like I said above, you do so much for AZB already and I hate to ask but, I'm wondering if you would consider adding the scores as a percentage, from highest to lowest, the way it was done in 2018? If not, I totally understand.
Also, I don't know if AtLarge here on AZB would be interested in keeping statistics on some of the things such as the break, to % of made or missed balls, scratches etc...etc... Members seem to really like that type information from matches. I wonder if it would be beneficial for this thread?
I may be wrong but, I think all of, or at least some of that would inspire more and more people to participate in the ghost challenge thread. Then again, even if it didn't increase participation, I'm pretty sure it would increase the number of members like myself that aren't able to play but, like to watch and hopefully learn or even give advice if needed.
Again, you do so much already and I would totally understand if you cannot.
Regardless, thank you for doing the work to keep this section of AZB going and in-check. We (all of AZB) would be much, much less without the few members such as yourself.
Thanks for your time,
Jeff
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