Re cloth Valley Bar box wrap or no?

Bed Cloth

https://www.seyberts.com/pool-table-repair-supplies

the Simonis videos are a good source of information for a repeatable process.

Also, every bar table I have recovered had the cloth wrapped underneath.

northshoremb said:

Thanks that's info o was looking for about wrapping cloth. I know everything other then Bar tables are totally different with stapling cloth not glueing

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No, don't wrap the cloth. The slate is designed to sit flush on the frame. Wrapping the cloth with raise the slate and change the nose height of the cushions. Also, if there is any type of wrinkle in the cloth underneath the slate it will make the slate lay uneven.

northshoremb said:

Well thats what I originally thought cause all clothes could have different thickness and compress over time. There is 2 glued strips of cloth on the center Aluminum crosses as well. Are those suppose to be there or did the previous person add those do you think?

Also what should the height be from cloth to the nose of the rail so I can do exact same height all the way around when tightening rails back on. Like anything there is probably 1/16" up or down movement do to the bolt hole movement.
2.25" balls and new Penguin rails

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The proper nose height is 1-7/16 inches. The cloth on the aluminum cross brace should be removed as well. Due to the Valley design, the slate will naturally slag in the center of the table and there's not much you can do about it (that I'm aware of). Shimming under the cross braces might help some but it's going to sag regardless.

FeelDaShot said:

The proper nose height is 1-7/16 inches. The cloth on the aluminum cross brace should be removed as well. Due to the Valley design, the slate will naturally slag in the center of the table and there's not much you can do about it (that I'm aware of). Shimming under the cross braces might help some but it's going to sag regardless.

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Full disclosure: I am not a table mechanic.

My Valley has the cloth wrapped underneath the slate. There was enough tolerance in the cushions to set them at the proper nose height. The cloth on the aluminum cross members is there to raise up the height of the cross member to make up for the cloth wrapped around the slate. ie: If cloth is wrapped around the slate you need strips of cloth on the cross members, if slate is naked on the bottom then you want the cross members naked. I have seen a number of Valleys disassembled and right or wrong they all had the cloth wrapped around the bottom of the slate.

fastone371 said:

Full disclosure: I am not a table mechanic.

My Valley has the cloth wrapped underneath the slate. There was enough tolerance in the cushions to set them at the proper nose height. The cloth on the aluminum cross members is there to raise up the height of the cross member to make up for the cloth wrapped around the slate. ie: If cloth is wrapped around the slate you need strips of cloth on the cross members, if slate is naked on the bottom then you want the cross members naked. I have seen a number of Valleys disassembled and right or wrong they all had the cloth wrapped around the bottom of the slate.

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Tend to agree here. Seen more than a few Valley's in my day that were exactly as you describe. They played fine.

northshoremb said:

Well since we play tournaments and 3 leagues a week might as well do it right. That's why I bought new rails and cloth so I'll flip slate and scrape all signs of clue and do it right plus measure rail height exact and tighten

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I would also advise against using 3M Spray Adhesive. It doesn't work too well and is likely the reason why the cloth is often tucked under the slate for additional support. It might work well for cheaper cloth but it definitely isn't strong enough for tightly stretched Simonis.

Per Simonis (http://www.simoniscloth.com/installation): "We recommend 3M Fast-Bond10™ for edge-glue glue-down installations. Currently, we are not aware of any other adhesives that will give proper adhesion for a straight edge-glue install."

RKC also has his own glue which is supposed to work well. I've never used it though.

I'll chime in here in an effort to be helpful.

Most tables sag over time. Especially an old Valley bar box. Gravity takes over. If you put levels on it you can get it balanced but the edges will always be high and the center will always be low. The stacked cloth in the center of the center supports is to help this. It raises the center of the slate and makes it flatter.

As for the nose height of the cushion.. That is a function of (1)the rail being made properly, (2)wrapping the cloth around the top and bottom of the rail, and (3)holding the rail down to the slate when tightening the bolts.

It doesn't matter where the slate is. What matters is the rails is sitting on the slate and that the rail is not tipped forward. If the cloth is wrapped around to the back of the rail at the top(which it would have to or it would look wrong) then it also needs to be wrapped around the rail to the back at the bottom.

As far as wrapping the bed cloth.. If your glue job is outstanding you don't have to wrap it. But it needs to be really good. If you have a really tight stretch on the cloth(which you should) and your glue job is lacking a bit it will slip. Wrapping it all the way around helps this by using the weight of the slate to help keep things in place. Just be consistent. It will make leveling easier.

Anything in between the slate bottom and the frame/shelf it sits on will raise the slate out of the cabinet and will in turn raise the rails so that they sit proud of table. At some point it becomes too much and just plain looks like crap and at a further point the bolts will no longer line up. Because of the sag in the center the side rails will usually sit proud by the side pocket and flush at the corners and ends. You have to kind of split the difference.

Hope this helps. Take it easy. Good luck. Julio

Also..

3M Super 77 works fine. But... Be careful. Mercury Ultra is very stretchy cloth. You have to spray the glue on the cloth. About 3 coats. Spray the first one light and give it a minute to set up a bit. This creates a little shield to keep the other coats from soaking through. Then go around and around.

Then spray the slate. 1" in from the edge, anymore and you get glue out on the play surface. And spray the side also.

It's essentially contact cement. You need glue on both surfaces for them to stick together. With Mercury Ultra it's easy to stretch the cloth so you pull the glue off. Hope that makes sense. Good luck.

Every Valley table I've every seen apart had the cloth wrapped under. They also had glue of the top surface, which I don't like. I scrape it all off, and then use RKC glue on the side and bottom surfaces. Wrapped, or not wrapped, it will not affect rail height unless you are at the limit of the play in the bolt holes. (which I've only seen when too many shims were used to raise the center) You want a uniform stretch, so figure out how stretchy the cloth is, and then draw some lines so you can get it straight. The Simonis video explains the stretch index very well.