Minnesota Fats

MattPoland · Nov 9, 2019

Just read an article in Billiards Digest with a strong argument that Walter Tevis based the character Minnesota Fats off of Rudolph Wanderone. It was previously assumed Wanderone co-opted the name to cash in on the movie’s success. Tevis insisted that was the case. But this article really makes it look the other way around.

Prior to the movie, Wanderone was known as New York Fats. Well, Tevis donated his original manuscript Eastern Kentucky University. Someone reviewed it and found that the character was originally called New York Fats and was renamed Minnesota Fats.

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MattPoland · Nov 9, 2019

Here’s the full article.

http://www.billiardsdigest.com/new_current_issue/nov_19/bb_index.php

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logical · Nov 9, 2019

Or maybe somebody said "hey, there is some guy out there calling himself NY fats" and the writer said "no kidding, never heard of him, it was a made up name, let's change it to Minnesota".

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Nine ... corner · Nov 9, 2019

logical said:
Or maybe somebody said "hey, there is some guy out there calling himself NY fats" and the writer said "no kidding, never heard of him, it was a made up name, let's change it to Minnesota".

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I'm with you on this. Once alerted that there was someone calling himself New York Fats he would have changed the name.

alstl · Nov 9, 2019

That would indicate the character was about Fats. Interesting. Probably changed it to Minnesota to keep from having to pay Fats any royalties.

BRussell · Nov 9, 2019

Interesting. Still, the book/movie character is so different from the real Minnesota Fats that it doesn’t really seem based on him. Maybe just the name.

WildWing · Nov 9, 2019

Long been an interesting debate. Tevis always denied knowing about Wanderone, New York Fats, Double Smarts Fats, and then Triple Smart Fats. Mosconi always backed the story of Tevis, how he had never heard of Fats, before writing The Hustler.

Personally, I don't think you just make up a name and pool character like "Fats" without having heard of him. I think Wanderone, as Fats was well known enough, that Tevis heard of him, and altered it a bit to become a character in the story. What are the chances?

All the best,
WW

Banger · Nov 9, 2019

I doubt we'll ever know for sure. The names may be similar, but the Minnesota Fats character in the book/movie is just so different from the real life New York Fats.

There were a lot of hustlers and other people in the gambling world with the nickname "Fat" or "Fats". Just pulling a few from Freddy Bentivegna's book "The Encyclopedia of Pool Hustlers", I found: Omaha Fats, Fat Archibald,
Fat Chico, Fat Harley, Fat Wes, New York Fat Art, The Fat Man (golf hustler), and of course New York Fats (Double Smart Fats/Triple Smart Fats). And there were probably a few others, too.

And then there were the hustlers who had names like: Rotation Slim, Watusi Slim, Detroit Slim, and of course Amarillo Slim.

It's easy to imagine that Tevis could create a fictional character with the name "Fats".

MattPoland · Nov 9, 2019

Banger said:
I doubt we'll ever know for sure. The names may be similar, but the Minnesota Fats character in the book/movie is just so different from the real life New York Fats.

There were a lot of hustlers and other people in the gambling world with the nickname "Fat" or "Fats". Just pulling a few from Freddy Bentivegna's book "The Encyclopedia of Pool Hustlers", I found: Omaha Fats, Fat Archibald,

Fat Chico, Fat Harley, Fat Wes, New York Fat Art, The Fat Man (golf hustler), and of course New York Fats (Double Smart Fats/Triple Smart Fats). And there were probably a few others, too.

And then there were the hustlers who had names like: Rotation Slim, Watusi Slim, Detroit Slim, and of course Amarillo Slim.

It's easy to imagine that Tevis could create a fictional character with the name "Fats".

The interesting part is that the original manuscript had him named “New York Fats”. If someone draws the comparison now, I’d be less likely to “correct” them.

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pt109 · Nov 9, 2019

I’m a lot more in Fatty’s corner now with this new info.
Before, I just didn’t care...Fats was a lotta fun to be around.

Banger · Nov 9, 2019

MattPoland said:
The interesting part is that the original manuscript had him named “New York Fats”. If someone draws the comparison now, I’d be less likely to “correct” them.

I get it, but since the book was set in New York, and was about a hustler from New York, who was playing in his home room in New York, it would only make sense for Tevis to invent a character named "New York" Fats. And then later, when Tevis found out there was in fact a real New York Fats, he changed the character name to name to Minnesota Fats. Pure conjecture on my part, and as I said, I doubt we will ever know for sure.

franko · Nov 9, 2019

Agree

WildWing said:
Long been an interesting debate. Tevis always denied knowing about Wanderone, New York Fats, Double Smarts Fats, and then Triple Smart Fats. Mosconi always backed the story of Tevis, how he had never heard of Fats, before writing The Hustler.

Personally, I don't think you just make up a name and pool character like "Fats" without having heard of him. I think Wanderone, as Fats was well known enough, that Tevis heard of him, and altered it a bit to become a character in the story. What are the chances?

All the best,
WW

This makes the most sense to me.

pt109 · Nov 9, 2019

Banger said:
I get it, but since the book was set in New York, and was about a hustler from New York, who was playing in his home room in New York, it would only make sense for Tevis to invent a character named "New York" Fats. And then later, when Tevis found out there was in fact a real New York Fats, he changed the character name to name to Minnesota Fats. Pure conjecture on my part, and as I said, I doubt we will ever know for sure.

The book was set in Chicago.
Bennington’s was a pretty good description of Bensingers in it’s prime.

Banger · Nov 9, 2019

pt109 said:
The book was set in Chicago.
Bennington’s was a pretty good description of Bensingers in it’s prime.

Holy crap, I must be losing my mind. I guess it's true what they say......the memory is the second thing to go. :rotflmao1: Yes Chicago, now that you mention it. OK, forget everything I said. :embarrassed2:

pt109 · Nov 9, 2019

Banger said:
Holy crap, I must be losing my mind. I guess it's true what they say......the memory is the second thing to go. :rotflmao1: Yes Chicago, now that you mention it. OK, forget everything I said. :embarrassed2:

Give yourself a break....the movie was based on Ames in NYC.

BC21 · Nov 9, 2019

By 1957, when Tevis was writing "The Hustler", which was first a short story published in Playboy in 1955 I think, good ol Rudy Wanderone was already settled down with a wife and living in Illinois. He hustled quite a bit in NY back in the 1930's, even moved to Virginia during WWII to hustle servicemen in Norfolk. But after the war he moved back to Illinois. If Tevis ever saw or met him it would've been very brief while Rudy was on the road hustling, either in NY City or in Lexington KY near Tevis's home town.

After The Hustler was published, Wanderone read the book and immediately saw an opportunity to make a buck. He was a hustler. He started spreading the word that the character in the book was him. When Tevis heard that there was a fat pool player claiming to be "Minnesota Fats", he told his wife he was going to sue him for using the name as means to make money. But he never did sue Wanderone, probably because there wasn't much of a case.

Nevertheless, most everyone that knew Tevis knew that he was an avid pool player when he was younger, not great, but good enough to hustle locals in surrounding towns before he become an English teacher and started writing short stories. I'm sure he saw plenty of fat pool hustlers, probably even heard rumors of a guy dubbed Double Smarts or Triple Smarts or New York Fats. Tevis visited NY quite often, but during those years
Rudy was living in Illinois, semi-retired, making occasional road trips with a buddy when he could.

Rudolph Wanderone wasn't "the greatest hustler in the world" until he adopted the name "Minnesota Fats" from Tevis's book, and then after the movie came out it paved him a future straight into stardom. The fictional character, Minnesota Fats, played by Jackie Gleason in the movie, was more than likely a composite of several real life characters that Tevis had either seen in action or heard about during his years of playing pool. And now the name of this fictional character, Minnesota Fats, is more popular among non pool players than any real worldclass player has ever been, living or dead.

Island Drive · Nov 10, 2019

BC21 said:
By 1957, when Tevis was writing "The Hustler", which was first a short story published in Playboy in 1955 I think, good ol Rudy Wanderone was already settled down with a wife and living in Illinois. He hustled quite a bit in NY back in the 1930's, even moved to Virginia during WWII to hustle servicemen in Norfolk. But after the war he moved back to Illinois. If Tevis ever saw or met him it would've been very brief while Rudy was on the road hustling, either in NY City or in Lexington KY near Tevis's home town.

After The Hustler was published, Wanderone read the book and immediately saw an opportunity to make a buck. He was a hustler. He started spreading the word that the character in the book was him. When Tevis heard that there was a fat pool player claiming to be "Minnesota Fats", he told his wife he was going to sue him for using the name as means to make money. But he never did sue Wanderone, probably because there wasn't much of a case.

Nevertheless, most everyone that knew Tevis knew that he was an avid pool player when he was younger, not great, but good enough to hustle locals in surrounding towns before he become an English teacher and started writing short stories. I'm sure he saw plenty of fat pool hustlers, probably even heard rumors of a guy dubbed Double Smarts or Triple Smarts or New York Fats. Tevis visited NY quite often, but during those years
Rudy was living in Illinois, semi-retired, making occasional road trips with a buddy when he could.

Rudolph Wanderone wasn't "the greatest hustler in the world" until he adopted the name "Minnesota Fats" from Tevis's book, and then after the movie came out it paved him a future straight into stardom. The fictional character, Minnesota Fats, played by Jackie Gleason in the movie, was more than likely a composite of several real life characters that Tevis had either seen in action or heard about during his years of playing pool. And now the name of this fictional character, Minnesota Fats, is more popular among non pool players than any real worldclass player has ever been, living or dead.

6 weeks after Fatty died....I visited Evelyn in Dowell IL. Since I had done some production work, I had it planned out. I called her up, she invited me out. I spent my college yrs 67-71 in Carbondale IL, Fats used to come to our pool room Crazy Horse Billiards in Carbondale, and try and hustle the kids/not really. I happened to be at Janscos the night the Treasury Dept robbed the joint.

I got to ask her pretty much everything about her life with this man. 43 or 44 years.

jay helfert · Nov 10, 2019

BC21 said:
By 1957, when Tevis was writing "The Hustler", which was first a short story published in Playboy in 1955 I think, good ol Rudy Wanderone was already settled down with a wife and living in Illinois. He hustled quite a bit in NY back in the 1930's, even moved to Virginia during WWII to hustle servicemen in Norfolk. But after the war he moved back to Illinois. If Tevis ever saw or met him it would've been very brief while Rudy was on the road hustling, either in NY City or in Lexington KY near Tevis's home town.

After The Hustler was published, Wanderone read the book and immediately saw an opportunity to make a buck. He was a hustler. He started spreading the word that the character in the book was him. When Tevis heard that there was a fat pool player claiming to be "Minnesota Fats", he told his wife he was going to sue him for using the name as means to make money. But he never did sue Wanderone, probably because there wasn't much of a case.

Nevertheless, most everyone that knew Tevis knew that he was an avid pool player when he was younger, not great, but good enough to hustle locals in surrounding towns before he become an English teacher and started writing short stories. I'm sure he saw plenty of fat pool hustlers, probably even heard rumors of a guy dubbed Double Smarts or Triple Smarts or New York Fats. Tevis visited NY quite often, but during those years
Rudy was living in Illinois, semi-retired, making occasional road trips with a buddy when he could.

Rudolph Wanderone wasn't "the greatest hustler in the world" until he adopted the name "Minnesota Fats" from Tevis's book, and then after the movie came out it paved him a future straight into stardom. The fictional character, Minnesota Fats, played by Jackie Gleason in the movie, was more than likely a composite of several real life characters that Tevis had either seen in action or heard about during his years of playing pool. And now the name of this fictional character, Minnesota Fats, is more popular among non pool players than any real worldclass player has ever been, living or dead.

Close enough for military work.

Actually it was Fats who sued Tevis. It was front page news back then. Fats eventually lost his law suit but managed to escape with all the notoriety, and remained Minnesota Fats for the rest of his life. He enriched himself many times over to the chagrin of Walter Tevis who inadvertently made him a star.

BC21 · Nov 10, 2019

Island Drive said:
6 weeks after Fatty died....I visited Evelyn in Dowell IL. Since I had done some production work, I had it planned out. I called her up, she invited me out. I spent my college yrs 67-71 in Carbondale IL, Fats used to come to our pool room Crazy Horse Billiards in Carbondale, and try and hustle the kids/not really. I happened to be at Janscos the night the Treasury Dept robbed the joint.

I got to ask her pretty much everything about her life with this man. 43 or 44 years.

Wow! I bet that was great conversation/interview!

BC21 · Nov 10, 2019

jay helfert said:
Close enough for military work.
Actually it was Fats who sued Tevis. It was front page news back then. Fats eventually lost his law suit but managed to escape with all the notoriety, and remained Minnesota Fats for the rest of his life. He enriched himself many times over to the chagrin of Walter Tevis who inadvertently made him a star.

Yep. I read a great article in a Kentucky magazine a few years ago. It contained a lot of info on Tevis and David Bowie, who played in "The Man who Fell to Earth". A lot of biographical stuff on Tevis in that article. That's where his wife talked about Tevis wanting to sue Wanderone, but there wasn't a case because The Hustler was a fictional story, and it's not illegal if people want to pretend or believe they're a character from a story. It's also not illegal if you write a story about a real person but change their name, change their character traits, and then label it fiction.

A good writer knows how to make the reader feel connected, related, in tune with a character. Most any reader has thought, "Damn, this could be me!". Tevis's wife thought that way about the backer, Bert, in The Hustler. She said she can see herself in that character.
How many pool players thought they fit Eddie's profile? Or Fats? Or Sarah? I'd say quite a few, but Wanderone is the only one I know of that actually thought he could sue Tevis for it. Lol.

It wouldn't matter if Tevis actually did base some of the Fats character off of Wanderone. Writer's build characters out of people they've seen or known or heard about, taking some traits from reality and fabricating the rest. A good character personifies or embodies traits that readers can relate to. This keeps us engaged in the story. If Tevis ever saw Rudy or heard about him he could very well have incorporated some of what he saw or heard into his fat pool player character, along with traits he found in other pool players. But he would make his fat character the best, the coolest, the most reserved, the greatest player known.

Minnesota Fats

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