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91design
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08-10-2018, 07:18 AM

Artemis inteecontinental cushions won't fit without modifying the subrails profile. I'm nowhere near a mechanic, so it could be the case that I'm wrong, but I read every single thread on this forum about rails and subrailsand that was the answer that was given any single time
Mark Gregory and Glen prefer installing brunswick superspeeds instead of artemis on gold crown tables; if you went for a gc IV instead of a III you would need subrail calibration for better playability not for compatibility. Subrails' calibration and angle modification is something that isn't so easy to do.

Last edited by 91design; 08-10-2018 at 07:27 AM.
  
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ShortBusRuss
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08-10-2018, 08:45 AM

I have been in contact with realkingcobra throughout this process, as he realizes that I have zero options here in Germany but to show the table mechanic here what to do, and hope they can figure it out. He says the Artemis Intercontinental #66 is a direct replacement for Superspeed, being it is a K55 profile. He specifically said that the only thing required is to extend the subrail, given that the rails themselves are not warped.

Glen, can you confirm? I also saw one or two people posting conflicting info on whether Intercontinentals are a drop-in replacement for Superspeeds.

Thanks,

Short Bus Russ
  
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ShortBusRuss
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08-10-2018, 09:04 AM

Okay.. so, because people are giving pure "opinions", and masking it with the whole "I'm not a mechanic, but......"

Here is the thread where realkingcobra is very explicit: Newer Gold Crown IIIs and 4s and 5s all take Artemis Intercontinental #66 (K55 profile) as a direct replacement for Superspeeds. ACTUALLY, multiple people in this definitive thread explicitly mention getting the Artemis rails with no subrail angle modification, and that they played great.

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=260808

Now, I may be coming across a little salty here, but I have seen some of the same members giving the same poor advice, and the incorrect information has been addressed. I am politely asking you to reference the correct answer this time, and go back and edit out your incorrect jnformation from previous threads. In other words, if you don't KNOW, don't give an "educated guess". Because the "educated guesses" from non-mechanics in this particular case, were dead wromg.

I am having a hard enough time here getting a table that plays tough, and as close to Diamond specs as possible, with no qualified mechanics, without people continuing to inject the same misleading information.
  
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91design
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08-10-2018, 09:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by perfectpocketz View Post
The Gold Crown tables (3-4-5) take the 55 cushions....they still call them Brunswick super speed K66...but the profile of the super speed today are bigger cushions than back in the days of the monarch super speed K66.
The artemis cushion (intercontinental) is very close to the same profile as the brunswick super speed....the nose on the Artemis is bigger...and will set higher on the sub-rail....that's why the sub-rail will need recut..to bring the cushion nose down.
But you can put the Artemis on as is.....but the table will play slower....and want to trap the balls.
But if your not playing the US Open on the table....go for it.....but if you want the table to play perfectly.....ship the rails...I can use the money..LOL
Or call me and I help the best I can on the phone.

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Mark Gregory
Also it depends if the gcIII you bought is first production or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by realkingcobra View Post
Yes, but the GC3 has to be the second production, the early GC3's came out with the early Superspeed cushions that replace the Monarch cushions, and were still 1 1/8" wide.
  
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08-10-2018, 11:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShortBusRuss View Post
Okay.. so, because people are giving pure "opinions", and masking it with the whole "I'm not a mechanic, but......"

Here is the thread where realkingcobra is very explicit: Newer Gold Crown IIIs and 4s and 5s all take Artemis Intercontinental #66 (K55 profile) as a direct replacement for Superspeeds. ACTUALLY, multiple people in this definitive thread explicitly mention getting the Artemis rails with no subrail angle modification, and that they played great.

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=260808

Now, I may be coming across a little salty here, but I have seen some of the same members giving the same poor advice, and the incorrect information has been addressed. I am politely asking you to reference the correct answer this time, and go back and edit out your incorrect jnformation from previous threads. In other words, if you don't KNOW, don't give an "educated guess". Because the "educated guesses" from non-mechanics in this particular case, were dead wromg.

I am having a hard enough time here getting a table that plays tough, and as close to Diamond specs as possible, with no qualified mechanics, without people continuing to inject the same misleading information.
Why are you asking questions here if you are already in communication with RKC and Mark? Heck, why ask both of them?
Pick one.
Good luck in finding a mechanic there who is going to mitre the subrail face to the blue label Diamond specs.
I would think nobody there is tooled for it b/c they've never had the request before .
  
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08-10-2018, 11:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyInCali View Post
Why are you asking questions here if you are already in communication with RKC and Mark? Heck, why ask both of them?
Pick one.
Good luck in finding a mechanic there who is going to mitre the subrail face to the blue label Diamond specs.
I would think nobody there is tooled for it b/c they've never had the request before .
Again. In the reference thread above..... realkingcobra explicitly said no modification is needed for later Gold Crown III's, IVs, and Vs to install Artemis Intercontinental #66, because both Superspeeds and Artemis Intercontinental #66s are K55 profiles.

I asked on here because I assumed that there were specific questions that a number of table mechanics might have accurate input on. The last post wasn't asking... It was "telling"that I had pulled the trigger and hoping for the best. It was giving the forum members a little bit of information about my current situation, so we could all wait in anticipation for the results.

Glen told me specifically that the Artemis rails on a Gold Crown will not bank funnny, and he gave me the miter angles to pass on to the mechanic. In my last few posts, I am just sharing my experience with the forum, thinking they might get a kick out of seeing the Germans start to learn a little about subrail extensions.

Here's what it comes down to.. As long as the table banks true, that is my main concern. All the tight pocket tables I have played on in germany are double/triple shimmmed. And they play like crap. Even if the billiard mechanic does a mediocre job with the pocket angles, it's still better than how the pocket would play with double shims/pocket facings.

Again, sorry if I came across as salty, but as I have been going through this process, I am seeing a lot of less than stellar info being passed around. Trentfromtoledo does not do railwork himself, but he is saying that these Artemis Intercontinentals require subrail angle changes to be applied to a Gold Crown III, and Glen says this is not true. Lots of instances of people saying these Intercontinentals are a K66 profile, when multiple threads have explained they are not.

More than anything, I was looking for responses from someone who specifically had experience putting Intercontinentals on Gold Crowns themselves, not those who "heard this", and "heard that".

After a few days on the threads and mixed up opinions, I did go back to Glen, and I thank him for his time in helping me. But I figured everyone WOULD like to know the current status.
  
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91design
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08-10-2018, 12:37 PM

Artemis intercontintal are k55 profile cushions, but as mark stated in the comment I quoted before the Artemis have a longer nose, so if you want the best playability, the one as close to a blue label diamond, as stated by mark again, you need to correct and calibrate the subrails.
But there is a case, as RKC stated in the post I quoted before, that k55 profile cushions wont fit because of the shorter subrails in first production GC3.
I'm in the same boat as you(I have a GC4) and I talked to Glen just like you did, I'm just passing the informations that Glen an Mark passed before on this forum.
Anyway it's important to share your experience because here in Europe the infos about rail extension and calibration are lacking.
  
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08-10-2018, 02:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 91design View Post
Artemis intercontintal are k55 profile cushions, but as mark stated in the comment I quoted before the Artemis have a longer nose, so if you want the best playability, the one as close to a blue label diamond, as stated by mark again, you need to correct and calibrate the subrails.
But there is a case, as RKC stated in the post I quoted before, that k55 profile cushions wont fit because of the shorter subrails in first production GC3.
I'm in the same boat as you(I have a GC4) and I talked to Glen just like you did, I'm just passing the informations that Glen an Mark passed before on this forum.
Anyway it's important to share your experience because here in Europe the infos about rail extension and calibration are lacking.
I think it becomes a question whether you want your GC to bank like the red label at no extra cost or blue label with a lot more costs and RISKS.
  
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ShortBusRuss
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08-10-2018, 02:55 PM

Okay, now this is what I am talking about. Inconsistent info. Mark "said" that the rail is slightly higher, and "pinches" the CB, slowing down the CB slightly. The Red Labels had the exact opposite problem. (I should know, I had a Red Label that cost me a One Pocket win against John Morra the year he won the One Pocket...)

The information I am getting in the forum is like this.. All over the place.

I think I am just gonna go with the order I have in now, and will adjust fire depending on how the table plays..
  
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Tony_in_MD
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08-10-2018, 03:13 PM

From what I recall Artemis IC 66 are a direct swap for a GC III or higher.

The GC I and II even needed subrail modifications for Brunswick superspeed cushions because those tables were designed for the old Monarch cushions.

My GC II had the Monarch cushions originally. Which is why it played so bad when I had a mechanic change them to superspeeds in the mid 90's. No subrail mod was done to the table then.

What I think I know was when Glenn was modifying my table to go from the superspeeds to artemis. I asked a lot of questions. That was going on 8 years ago so my memory could be off.

Anyway, good luck with your project. I am out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShortBusRuss View Post
I have been in contact with realkingcobra throughout this process, as he realizes that I have zero options here in Germany but to show the table mechanic here what to do, and hope they can figure it out. He says the Artemis Intercontinental #66 is a direct replacement for Superspeed, being it is a K55 profile. He specifically said that the only thing required is to extend the subrail, given that the rails themselves are not warped.

Glen, can you confirm? I also saw one or two people posting conflicting info on whether Intercontinentals are a drop-in replacement for Superspeeds.

Thanks,

Short Bus Russ


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Last edited by Tony_in_MD; 08-10-2018 at 03:25 PM.
  
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08-10-2018, 03:54 PM

early gc 3 tables have the older version of the superspeed and that is a FACT

If you talked to Glen and he told you what to do, you should take his advice.

He has never steered me wrong.

Good Luck

Trent.

p.s. Superspeed play the best on a Gold Crown! You are still trying to make a GC into a Diamond and it will never be one!
  
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08-10-2018, 04:21 PM

Also you would like to avoid using the exact same pockets' specs as a Diamond BL; the Diamonds have a deeper pocket's shelf, Mark (and I think Glen also) cuts the subrails at a 13° Down Angle on tables with shallow shelves (like a GC)


Quote:
Originally Posted by perfectpocketz View Post
The spec's on the Olhausen pro that are now on the guys table are spec's for a diamond table....not and Olhausen table.
The 15 down angle is used on diamond table because of the deep shelf of the slates.
When tables have shallow slate shelf.....there's on need to use more than 13 degree down angles.
The right spec's should be used on the table that's called for......not just the spec's that make the balls go in easier down the rails.
Stretching cushions is wrong.....if the cushions were ment to be stretched....the manufacture of the cushion would cut the cushions smaller and save money.
When the balls pound on those cushions for awhile....for sure the cushions are going to spring back.....no matter what glue you used.....with the angles on the that table....should take a basketball down the rails...even if the ball hits the 3rd diamond on the way.
All tables need ball rattle to some degree.....with out it...no one would ever miss.

I would say check back in a few months on this job....and see if the tables playing to easy...and that the cushions have not moved.

Mark Gregory
Good Luck
  
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08-10-2018, 09:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 91design View Post
Also you would like to avoid using the exact same pockets' specs as a Diamond BL; the Diamonds have a deeper pocket's shelf, Mark (and I think Glen also) cuts the subrails at a 13° Down Angle on tables with shallow shelves (like a GC)

Good Luck
Yes, Glen gave me guidance to ask for a 13 degree downangle.. I do understand that the pockets won't be exactly the same downangles and miters as Diamond, but an approximation that takes into account the Gold Crown's shallower shelf..

I will definitely keep the forum updated with the results...
  
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08-11-2018, 02:54 PM

Artemis on GC is just a bad idea imo.
Let's ask Mark.
The contact area grabs too much. No matter what you do.
OK when the cloth is still new.
Not when it gets old.

SuperSpeed banks just as well when the cloth wears out.
  
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08-11-2018, 03:09 PM

Don’t forget the OP’s main objective was to make the table play as close as possible to DCC tables. Not to play like a GC “should”

PS shortbus, I’ll take the 6 now that you will have a table similar to DCC to practice on
  
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