Question for Pool Hall Owner/Operators

cueandcushion

Cue & Cushion_STL_MO
Silver Member
Correction

nfty9er said:
If you get 70% profit on alcohol sales then you own a bar with a couple of tables not a pool room with a bar. Pool is all profit. (except for upkeep)
Alcohol costs you a fortune plus you pay taxes on the sales. No tax on pool. I have been in business for 30 years and one thing is always consistent. Pool sales equal all other sales of alcohol, food, soda and snacks. So if I take in $500 in pool I will take in 500 in all other sales. All the other stuff cost me money to stock. About one third. $166. So somebody is quoting those numbers out of context or skewed that way.
I agree with your other points though. Coincidentally we sold about 4 less than $100 cues in 2 days this week. Its like everything else it seems to go in streaks including business. It is funny in a pool room you can have 12 tables going and 10 minutes later there is nobody there. They seem to all come and once and leave at once. Oh well

If I remember correctly the numbers I am quoting is based on profit, NOT gross income. The 70% number I am giving just means that 70% of pool rooms get the most profit from alcohol. NOT that 70% of your money comes from alcohol. Pool doesnt make the profit due to the large overhead. I respectfully disagree that "pool is all profit". You do have to pay taxes on pool, unless the IRS has an exemption my accountant has not found, lol. If 60% of your room (in terms of square foot usage) is devoted to pool tables then you have to figure that 60% of your rent, electric bill, gas bill, maintenance cost (everything from cleaning supplies to personnel wages), taxes, insurance, etc is overhead for your pool tables. A bar area that is only 150 square feet can generate more profit per square foot. Same goes for a cue display. That is what I meant by my "profit by % quotes". I am not an economist so I was probably not as clear as I could have been. Sorry about that.
 

nfty9er

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
/Still respectfully disagree

cueandcushion said:
If I remember correctly the numbers I am quoting is based on profit, NOT gross income. The 70% number I am giving just means that 70% of pool rooms get the most profit from alcohol. NOT that 70% of your money comes from alcohol. Pool doesnt make the profit due to the large overhead. I respectfully disagree that "pool is all profit". You do have to pay taxes on pool, unless the IRS has an exemption my accountant has not found, lol. If 60% of your room (in terms of square foot usage) is devoted to pool tables then you have to figure that 60% of your rent, electric bill, gas bill, maintenance cost (everything from cleaning supplies to personnel wages), taxes, insurance, etc is overhead for your pool tables. A bar area that is only 150 square feet can generate more profit per square foot. Same goes for a cue display. That is what I meant by my "profit by % quotes". I am not an economist so I was probably not as clear as I could have been. Sorry about that.

When you make the decision to open a pool room(or buy one) profit on sq. footage goes out the window. Your anaolgy which could be correct would more reflect a bar not a pool room. The key is the rent for that sq. footage because it would be easy to be too overburdened with rent because like you say profit per sq. foot is low, bar or no bar in the room.
So all that cost you mention is still for everything and electricity for the pool is hardly anything compared to refrigeration you need for a bar so your figures are off there too. 20 tables with florescent lighting costs practically nothing with the new llights they install for you. The bar costs a lot more. When I say no taxes on pool I don't mean on my end of year profit that is all combined with the bar and food. Not only do you have to pay for the liquor you have to pay state taxes montly on that and you pay that on the profit not the cost. Now all those supplies you mention goes for the whole operation, not more for pool or bar. The bathrooms we all use. The maintenance in a bar can be just as much as on the pool tables. Think about it, all the utilties you pay mostly comes from having a bar in the pool room not vice versa. The rent is they key.
 

Padron

Pool room owner
I'm in partnership with raodwarior in a 5000 sq.ft. room here in NW Pennsylvania, so I'll share my perspective.

Briefly, we have 12 9' tables, couple of video games, two TV's, snacks and pop, and a pro shop for tip repairs, along with cues and other merchandise. We allow BYOB, which makes us no profit of course, but allows adults to choose to come and play pool while having a beer.

Why no bar? One, we don't want to be a bar with pool tables. The atmosphere would completely change, from a nice, comfortable pool room to something else. Also, a license in PA has to be obtained from someone selling one, and they're very, very expensive. So, no booze for sale.

No grill as of yet. Might get a pizza oven and run that. Right now, just various snack foods.

So far, we've made enough each month to pay the bills and a little bit extra, which goes right back into the room. Buying new cues, saving for the dead summer months, things like that.

Certain decisions we made early on have helped up keep this room going, as it will take time to get established. As raodwarior mentioned, don't plan to pay yourself anything for probably two years. This is a hobby for us, and we can afford to wait a while to take profits for ourselves. The only reason we can do that is because we have almost no debt. We own every stitch of equipment in the room, short of the jukebox and video games. We self-financed the room, so no monthly check to the bank. Also, no employees. Just ourselves and partly our wives are here all the time. With no booze and grill, well, no waitresses and cooks to pay. There are trade-offs, that's all.

As others have said, there are always exceptions to the rule. There's more than one way to keep a room going. Good luck to you.

-Padron-
 

whiteoak

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
New Room

Is it possible to make it with some food(pizza,sandwiches,sodas),pro shop,music,and top notch equipment without alcohol?For personal reasons i have no desire to sell it.Not moralizing here,just a personal preference.M.S.
 

mrsboss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I own a bar in Kernersville NC, and did not have a clue when I first started. If you are wanting to appeal to pool players make sure you find somewhere close to hotels, and good but inexpensive eating spots. The big thing with making your pool hall a winner is to remember those things you like best about the places you go to play pool. Atmosphere is everything. If you like the way someone elses seating arrangements, or their bar ,or positioning of tvs, pool tables, etc.. apply that to your place. Step number one is to go to you planning and zoning board...They tell you what you can and can't do, and where you can do it. If you have any specific questions just ask me. Good Luck to you!!
 

thebestpoolroom

thepoolroom
Silver Member
Return on your investment

One other thing to point out is what's the return on your investment?

You need to make a least 20% of your investment yearly. If you don't think you can make this kind of return, invest your money in the Roth IRA, stock market, mutual funds, or real estate and save yourself the headaches of owning a business.

John
 

iacas

Drill Sergeant
Silver Member
whiteoak said:
Is it possible to make it with some food(pizza,sandwiches,sodas),pro shop,music,and top notch equipment without alcohol?For personal reasons i have no desire to sell it.Not moralizing here,just a personal preference.M.S.
Read the post right above yours.
 

rackmsuckr

Linda Carter - The QUEEN!
Silver Member
Just in case you did not visit the link I mentioned...

I copied and pasted my thoughts...

Will you be serving food and beverages? Even microwave (sorry KT) burritos and pizzas, but the more selection, the better. Buy from Costco and mark them up. Candy bars - people like sweets and chips and energy drinks/juices. If you have more money to invest in the quality of food, that is recommended, as you can make more of a reputation, but then it may involve a kitchen and a cook too. Same with drinks, where you could invent your own 'branded' drink. Serve lattes, etc. Sometimes, you might want to just serve free coffee as a loss leader to people who PAY for pool.

When I was a house pro at Jillian's, they would put out a fish bowl, have business people put in their business cards or kids write their email and phone numbers down for a monthly drawing to win a 'party' which included 7 friends and table time (only 1-2 tables) for a few hours. Most of those parties could be held before 6. Your 'house pro' schmoozes, gives cheap lessons to non-players, etc. Serve free chips. Also can do birthday parties the same way, but add cake, ice cream, balloons and candles. The last 2 you can get cheap at the dollar store.

Also, get microwave popcorn and salty stuff that they need to drink with. The smell of good popcorn (don't get the cheap stuff) is contagious. Have large napkins (not the cheapo ones) so people will wipe off the grease.

Give kid's slumber parties on week nights in the summer or on school breaks(or advertise as parent's night out and do it on a Friday night). The kids campout with their sleeping bags and are chaperoned at all times by more than 1 adult. This is to allay fears of sexual misconduct. The kids come in around 8, (6 if you want to feed them and add on to the price), have snacks, planned activities, games (I can tell you some if you want), and kiddy 'tournaments. Have inexpensive prizes for all different categories, like most inventive shot, etc. Play HORSE on the table. Get a few quick lessons in on basics.

Try to attract business people in your area by giving lunch specials - a burger menu, 1 soda and an hr. of free pool anytime between 11-1 for $5-$10.

I agree on a membership, but I would do a monthly one. So much for the membership, maybe $25-$30, but don't also charge time. Let them play in the dead hours.

Another good idea is to get corporate party bookings (even weddings!) Have your house pro do 'biathlons' or 'triathlons' with pool, ping pong and darts, if you have them. They are fun mixers. I would pair up 2 people or compose a team out of people from different departments that don't ordinarily work together, with really lax rules. They thought it was hilarious.

Have daytime leagues or tournaments if there are enough people with night or no regular jobs.

Have a small pro shop - sell low to mid priced cues and equipment. Some pool places will let you get their stuff on consignment. Do cue repair and tips.

Throw a grand opening where you might raffle off some cues or equipment. Give out some relatively cheap items that they can win as doorprizes - 8ball antenna toppers, cue scuffers, cue cleaner, tip tappers, etc. Then they might buy a cue as well. If you have the dough, there are tons of pros and semipros (both players and trick shot artists) that will do exhibitions. I know some personally who do a great job. Have pictures they can have autographed with the pro and do challenge matches. Put out press releases to all media. Some off-night in sports might get tv coverage. Another good tie-in would be to hold a benefit for a charity (Katrina?) with the proceeds or a portion of them going to the charity. That will get you press for sure. And you can deduct all the expenses as advertising on your taxes.

Be creative - you can have a tournament or special party night just based on the holidays or tax time or anything to use as a theme. Don't just use US holidays - you can use international or goofy ones too.

Same with sponsoring a couple players in local tournaments or tours. Have them wear your logo and pay their entries in return for house pro-ing or running tournaments. Give them free table time in off hours. Tax-deductible as advertising.

Make sure you have a hip, identifiable logo. Emblazon your logo on shirts, pool towels, etc. and that can be a good sideline income if they become in- demand. Brand recognition and loyalty can bring on a life of its own. Set your identity early and stick with it - it can influence the decor, what kind of music is played (and the volume!) and what food and drinks are sold.

Advertise in your local billiard paper. If you throw regular weekly tournaments, sometimes you can get in that section without paying for advertising. Tax-deductible.

Sponsor pool teams to go to Vegas and run leagues. Tax-deductible as advertising.

And a poolroom may not make money, but they really have to hold tournaments. One way to be able to add more money is done all the time with green fees. The green fee is to compensate the owner for lost table time they would normally get during tournament play. Players expect to pay this. So say you had a weekend tournament and were going to add $500. If you had 32 players and they paid a $30 entry and a $10 green fee, you have just gotten $320 of your $500 to add, so in reality, all that is coming out of pocket is $180 which if you serve any food or drinks at all, you should at least break even. The players get $1460 in payouts and you only paid $180. I like giving the first bracket out of the money free table time in off hours or a free meal. So you look good to the players and it's a win-win. Make sure there is a camera to record winners, etc. It's vital that your tournaments run smoothly with a good director. Pay them if you have to. Some will work for a meal!

Scotch doubles tournaments are fun and the women drag the men there and vice-versa. Have local businesses donate door prizes/meals and make them fun.

Can you have pull tabs? Those are great money makers, but I'm not sure what the criteria is for being able to have them - it probably varies by city or state.

Get an inexpensive website. One of your regulars will know how to put it up if you don't. Trade them table time for site maintenance. Make sure the website is on your business cards and all ads. Put up the pictures of people, tournaments, etc.

Hope you get some ideas from this. I have more but this is all I can think of right now. Good luck!

Oh, I forgot something - the reason you are collecting those email addresses in the fish bowl is to have an emailing list to send out notices of specials, tournaments, etc. This will save a ton of $ in flyers, etc. and people have extensive email lists themselves that they will forward on to. There are automatic mailing programs that once you input the addresses, it will automatically email. It is not spam because they offered you their email. Remember the hosting fees are tax deductible!

On your website or just separately, you may want to do a newsletter to let people know of the specials for the month, past tournament results, even news about regulars (babies, marriages, etc.) so people start to feel like family.

Another technology thing - look into making your place a wi-fi hot spot. We computer geeks are attracted to pool. You can set it up that to get access they need to buy an hour's worth of table time or whatever.

OK, I really am done now.

Linda
 

ScottW

Fo' shizzle!
Silver Member
What are "pull tabs"?

On the techie side - I'm a web developer by trade, so as far as that side of things goes, I'm covered. :D

Lots of good info there Linda - thanks :)
 

rackmsuckr

Linda Carter - The QUEEN!
Silver Member
ScottW said:
What are "pull tabs"?

On the techie side - I'm a web developer by trade, so as far as that side of things goes, I'm covered. :D

Lots of good info there Linda - thanks :)

Pull tabs are those little scraps of paper in fish bowls behind a bar. They are cheap and buried in some of them are winners with denominations from $1 to whatever, usually up to $1000, like a scratch off lottery ticket. People will buy a pile and work through them for hours. You have to go through the gambling commission though, I think.
 

DelaWho???

Banger McCue
Silver Member
Great Responses Everyone

This thread has been a real suprise for me with tons of views and Great Ideas. Special thanks to those who are "living the dream" and are willing to share the experience. I've seen here that there are alot of ways to be successful and a wide variety of local restictions/regulations to be aware of.....I'm feverishly researching mine.....

I'd also be interested in those who had rooms that failed and why they failed......I think learning from mine and others mistakes can be invaluable....

Thanks again for all the positive feedback and for those who share this dream and haven't gotten started ..... like me..... will join in here and we can learn from each other and give us all what we want A Room Of Our Own.....
 

PoolSleuth

Banned
DelaWho??? said:
This thread has been a real suprise for me with tons of views and Great Ideas. Special thanks to those who are "living the dream" and are willing to share the experience. I've seen here that there are alot of ways to be successful and a wide variety of local restictions/regulations to be aware of.....I'm feverishly researching mine.....

I'd also be interested in those who had rooms that failed and why they failed......I think learning from mine and others mistakes can be invaluable....

Thanks again for all the positive feedback and for those who share this dream and haven't gotten started ..... like me..... will join in here and we can learn from each other and give us all what we want A Room Of Our Own.....


So are you still planning on opening a Room, or keeping your REAL JOB... ;)
 

pro-tyme

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
own a protyme

we would like to offer all new poolhall owners to be, the chance to be advised by us and carry our name if desired at any location in usa contact me at my web site at www.protymebilliards.com under contact for more info. we have been operating for over 20years in south subs of chicago and can save you a mini forture in your quest serious inq only please thank you over 50 tables ready to go in stock and 4 sale
 

cuejoey

25 mm chain guns matter
Silver Member
pro-tyme said:
we would like to offer all new poolhall owners to be, the chance to be advised by us and carry our name if desired at any location in usa contact me at my web site at www.protymebilliards.com under contact for more info. we have been operating for over 20years in south subs of chicago and can save you a mini forture in your quest serious inq only please thank you over 50 tables ready to go in stock and 4 sale
I have played at Pro Tyme in Orland Park Illinois.i can honestly say it is the most elegant and well run pool hall around.you would not believe how beautiful that place is.the Owner Ed is as nice of a person that u will ever meet....sincerly CueJoey
 

delarge

Banned
one more question...

why don't you guys have somebody come in and clean the sides of the tables every once in a while, i always hear owners complaining about the amount of money the average customer spends in a poolhall, yet you don't seem to want to spend the necessary amount of money on little things like this to get the right people in there. if you get home from shooting pool, and your slacks are blue, why would you ever go do it again?
 

cuejoey

25 mm chain guns matter
Silver Member
delarge said:
why don't you guys have somebody come in and clean the sides of the tables every once in a while, i always hear owners complaining about the amount of money the average customer spends in a poolhall, yet you don't seem to want to spend the necessary amount of money on little things like this to get the right people in there. if you get home from shooting pool, and your slacks are blue, why would you ever go do it again?
first off i would like to say i am not associated with the owner of Pro Tyme .i went to play there a couple times during the daytime.each time i was there i observed one of the girls that was working ,vacuum the floors and hand vacuum each table.then she sprayed and wiped down the top trim and sides of every table.they move thru quite a few customers everyday......just thought i'd mention it.when i visit Illinois that is my favorite place besides Chris's on Milwaukee av.Have a good one.:)
 

DelaWho???

Banger McCue
Silver Member
Keeping My Day Job For Now

I am keeping my day job for the time being......but I won't be doing this alone......and my day job offers alot of flexibility that others don't have......I do field service for a living.....Basically a high tech Maytag repair man......When I'm not on a service call my time is my own.....and I get paid 40 hrs whether I work them or not. I work from home and my boss lives 3 states away....I get several hours of afternoon table time a week......

I also have a dream of being a pro player but I'd have to hit the top 10 in money winners to be able to quit my day job.....Not a very realistic goal.......

A pool room on the other hand is looking more doable by the day. I'll keep my day job and with the help of others and a lot of after work time....I'll be there every night (like you could keep me away from my own pool room) and weekends......ultimately retire early and "live the dream"

Hope this answers it sleuth.....and love your new avitar......."Excuse me .... Does your dog bite???"
 

KBP

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Owned a Pool Hall

I once ran the tour and owned and operated a pool hall. I still have the tour but no pool hall due to the time that both consumed. The pool hall went to our partner since the tour is owned only by me. I can give you lots of input and help you out with the design aspects too.......I have one more class and I get an Associates in CADD. My toll free number is 877-328-7449 or you can email me at admin@kbpbilliardtour.com. The more pool rooms that are successful is better for the sport.
Kay Higgins
 
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