Layered tips - what am I missing - HELP

ShootingArts · Aug 4, 2020

Elkmaster forever, or until I run dry!

I have tried layered tips repeatedly. Got one from the factory on my CF shaft. Two Elkmaster tips, one I break with, one layered tip. I don't miscue twice a mionth with the Elkmaster tips, two or three times a session is the norm for the layered tip.

Could be a coincidence or fluke since there are other factors in play too but when I put another tip on that shaft it will be an Elkmaster. Still the best by empirical proof as far as I am concerned. Somebody else may find a different "best" for their style of play!

Hu

Matt_24 · Aug 5, 2020

I've used Kamui's for years. When MOORI tips came out in the 90s I used one and loved it. Went perfect for my style of play. I would say I'm more of a soft/finesse player, than hard/power shot type of play. I like for the tip to "grab" the cue ball more, versus the "ping" of a Lepro or Triangle or even Medium/Hard layered tips. I like the feedback the Kamui Soft tips give. Similar to the old Moori tips.

I know Efren has always used an Elkmaster...and I have thought about throwing one on my shaft to make sure there is nothing I'm missing.

CocoboloCowboy · Aug 5, 2020

Tips are like talking about favorite brand of Beer. If you buying I drinking XX Amber. :thumbup:

If I buying it "simpler Times Pilsner".:wink:

Everyone has a favorite, and all Beer to an Aussie is P**s.:wink: That's what they call Beer down under.:wink:

ShootingArts · Aug 5, 2020

Elkmasters

Matt_24 said:
I've used Kamui's for years. When MOORI tips came out in the 90s I used one and loved it. Went perfect for my style of play. I would say I'm more of a soft/finesse player, than hard/power shot type of play. I like for the tip to "grab" the cue ball more, versus the "ping" of a Lepro or Triangle or even Medium/Hard layered tips. I like the feedback the Kamui Soft tips give. Similar to the old Moori tips.

I know Efren has always used an Elkmaster...and I have thought about throwing one on my shaft to make sure there is nothing I'm missing.

Matt, I found the trick for the Elkmasters was to sort them by weight. The box I weighed had nine very light tips that I tossed, can't believe they would be good. That left me with three lots of tips, two medium weight and one lot of only three or four that were super heavy.

Been playing on the barbox on the back porch about a month with a tiger sniper on the playing shaft just like it came on the shaft other than a little scuffing now and then. No mushrooming.

When the carbon fiber shaft got here I started breaking with a twenty ounce dufferin one piece cue with an Elkmaster on it. Zero mushrooming from play or breaking. Same with a second Elkmaster on another shaft.

Your mileage may vary of course but I think you will be happy with a weighed Elkmaster. Without weighing them, if that box is representative there is about one chance in five of getting a bad one. Those are old and at less than forty cents a tip I didn't mind throwing away nine of them. Planned to dud them but I didn't have any dudded when I needed tips and these are playing as well as dudded tips and a little softer.

Hu

hang-the-9 · Aug 5, 2020

CocoboloCowboy said:
Tips are like talking about favorite brand of Beer. If you buying I drinking XX Amber. :thumbup:

If I buying it "simpler Times Pilsner".:wink:

Everyone has a favorite, and all Beer to an Aussie is P**s.:wink: That's what they call Beer down under.:wink:

I posted several times about a test I did with a friend of mine one day, we both had a bunch of shafts and tips around, and we setup a low right spin shot to see if there are differences between the tips and shafts.

The layered tips got more action on the cueball than any of our one layer tips. It came up as going from least to most spin

standard shaft/one layer tip
standard shaft/layered tip
LD shaft/one layer tip
LD shaft layered tip

Difference was more than a diamond of position between the best and worst ones as to how much lower we can get on the table and still pocket the shot.
We each shot about 5 times each with each shaft.
Benefits of layered tips and LD shafts is not fiction or imagination.

Patrick Johnson · Aug 5, 2020

Re "this tip/shaft grabs the CB better than that one"...

I've done this simple test on many combinations of tip/shaft, from soft single layer tips on house cues to hard multi layer tips on custom LD shafts, and lots of in-between combos.

With tips that are well groomed and chalked, I've never found a tip/shaft combo that "grabs" better or worse (or "gets more or less action") than any other.

The test:

1. Use a striped ball as your cue ball. Place it on the spot with the stripe vertical and aligned crosstable.

2. Hit the "CB" with maximum side spin (right on the edge of the stripe) on the equator, aimed directly crosstable at the middle diamond on that long rail section. Hit it just hard enough to rebound back crosstable to the near long rail.

3. Only count the shot if:
- the "CB" hits the far rail exactly at the target diamond, AND
- the "CB" rebounds to stop pretty close to the near rail, AND
- the chalk mark is right on the edge of the stripe.

Do any tip/shaft combos rebound wider or steeper than others?

pj
chgo

maha · Aug 5, 2020

if you do get more spin with a certain tip or shaft it also means that as you move the cue tip more off center you lose accuracy as the more spin you get the harder it is to determine what amount you are putting on the cueball.
of course if your desire is just to get maximum spin which almost never comes up in a game then thats fine.

however i dont think different tips make a very large difference. a person would have to do a controlled test and not a small amount of trials to make a sound conclusion.

patrick's test is a good one to get an idea if you are on track.

straightline · Aug 5, 2020

maha said:
if you do get more spin with a certain tip or shaft it also means that as you move the cue tip more off center you lose accuracy as the more spin you get the harder it is to determine what amount you are putting on the cueball.
of course if your desire is just to get maximum spin which almost never comes up in a game then that's fine.

FWIW Max english (if not exactly spin) is a pretty stable reference. I got used to it early on just trying to get shots to work. One that does come up quite a lot for me is getting too thin on rail shots. A bunt with max outside will kill the cue ball within a half table width. The object ball is always at low pocket speed and you don't need any more care than going twice across.

Geosnooker · Aug 5, 2020

couldnthinkof01 said:
Layered tips are garbage.
I have played with several different
ones and not one played better, lasted
longer, or was more consistent than a
cheap single layer tip.
The only reason to sell one of those tips,
in my opinion, is to say that you have something
different.
I get a triangle, lepro, or water buffalo.
Shape it once initially. Then, one more time
after about 12-24 hours of play. After that
I don't shape, scuff, or mess with the tip
for the next 2-3 years.
The glued layers of leather is the stupidest
idea since $30 chalk.

Agree. I bought a box of 16 Triangle tips 13 years ago. Still have a couple left. Play most days. Change the tip ‘maybe’ once a year...about the same as pro snooker players.

Miscuing? Nothing to do with the tip or chalk brand. I play American Pool with a 9.5 snooker tip cue and rarely miscue and then it’s not the tip but my momentary lack of concentration.

9BallKY · Aug 5, 2020

Obviously everyone is going to have a favorite tip and I have tried my share of them and I play with a Triangle. Not because I’m cheap I could afford about any tip I chose to play with. But for $1.50 most people just assume they aren’t much good. Of course you have to spend $30 on a tip for it to be good. Now I’m just a banger so no point in me paying that much for a tip.

Triangles mushroom very little if any. They hold their shape very well. In the last 5 years I don’t think my tip has caused me to miss as much as my horrible stroke. Fortunately I was lucky to get one of the new Triangles to test drive and I’ve been playing with it since December. I reshaped it in February and it hadn’t been touched till a few days ago when I just slightly touched it up.

tjlmbklr · Aug 24, 2020

couldnthinkof01 said:
Layered tips are garbage.
I have played with several different
ones and not one played better, lasted
longer, or was more consistent than a
cheap single layer tip.
The only reason to sell one of those tips,
in my opinion, is to say that you have something
different.
I get a triangle, lepro, or water buffalo.
Shape it once initially. Then, one more time
after about 12-24 hours of play. After that
I don't shape, scuff, or mess with the tip
for the next 2-3 years.
The glued layers of leather is the stupidest
idea since $30 chalk.

Hey..hey hey, what about $12/box of two Magic Chalk! :thumbup:

tjlmbklr · Aug 24, 2020

Icon of Sin said:
From my experience:

Used to love triangles. Then one day I tried a sniper tip (about 15 years ago). Loved the way it felt and the action I got on the ball. From this point on, I stayed with layed tips.

After Snipers I tried Kamui Blacks. Really liked them, for the same reason as snipers.

Then about 5 years ago, I feel the Kamui's started to feel too spongey. Not solid. Had a bad sound and a bad feel. Both the Blacks and the Clears. At this point I went back to Snipers.

Then about a year later, a few good friends recommended Dennis Searing's Precision Tips. (precisiontip.com). These were the best layered tips I have ever used. The feel of a solid tip, but with the performance of a layered. Been using the Precision Mediums for a few years now. Just last week I had a Sniper laying around and decided to give that a try again. After shooting with it for about half a day I told my cue guy to chop it off and put a Precision back on. Also told him that if I ever come to him with another tip, that isn't a precision, while precisions are still available, then slap me.

About an hour ago, I just ordered 5 more.

See my disclaimer.

I'm intrigued. What did you go with, Soft medium or hard?

TATE · Aug 24, 2020

PoolFan101 said:
Hello ,

Since getting back into playing things have changed to do e degree. Back in my playing Days I preferred a nice Le Pro tip. It seems that they are not what they used to be In terms of Quality. Now layered tips seem to be the rage. My Son has a black kamui SS on his cue and I had a ultra skin black soft on mine. It seems we both seem to mid -cue a lot. More than should be. These tips have been on about 4 months. Is there some maintenance to these that I am missing. Do they need roughed up every week or so. Should we go to medium maybe as that is what is causing miscues. I really mis a good old plain leather tip sometimes, Is there one anymore that plays like it should. I have thought about switching to a medium tip. What do you guys recommend, also what is the best basic leather tip out there today. I feel like the tips are glazing over maybe. Just was not for sure how to maintain them. I thought these layered tip require less maintenance than a regular leather tip such as a Triangle or Elk master. Thanks for any help.

I use layered tips (Ultraskin Medium) and don't scruff them. I use a tip pick on mine every few days and really work it over. These tips are very durable and can stand the constant picking. I don't miscue anymore at all. I also use Blue Diamond chalk which seems to be grainy and has the effect of scruffing as you go. The combination of Tip Pik and Blue Diamond works very well for me, solved my miscue problems. I highly recommend it.

overlord · Aug 24, 2020

I've used Tiger tips forever and all I do is put chalk on them. They last for a long time and don't mushroom.

I currently have a Sniper on my playing cue shaft. Tiger is local for folks in Los Angeles and I've been through their factory and they make quality products.

TATE · Aug 24, 2020

overlord said:
I've used Tiger tips forever and all I do is put chalk on them. They last for a long time and don't mushroom.

I currently have a Sniper on my playing cue shaft. Tiger is local for folks in Los Angeles and I've been through their factory and they make quality products.

To me that's the big advantage of layered tips, durability and ability to hold their shape. I've payed with some for 4 or 5 years and they hold up fine.

philly · Aug 25, 2020

HawaiianEye said:
Same here.

Must be stroke related.

Miscues are the indians fault, not the arrow.
You miscue because you come out of the shot.
Be aware next time you miscue, your knees or your head come up a tiny bit and you come out of the shot.
Love it when players blame everybody but themselves.

Simple hard pressed triangle at a buck apiece works for me.

gregcantrall · Aug 25, 2020

The glue layer is the problem

Layered tips will leave little fly specks on the cue ball. That’s the glue.
I tried one and cut it off shortly after misscueing and finding the specks of glue on the cue ball.
Triangle is my tip choice.

Patrick Johnson · Aug 25, 2020

gregcantrall said:
Layered tips will leave little fly specks on the cue ball. That’s the glue.
I tried one and cut it off shortly after misscueing and finding the specks of glue on the cue ball.
Triangle is my tip choice.

I've used layered tips for 20+ years - Moori and UltraSkin - never had a problem of any kind, and definitely never saw specks.

pj
chgo

Maniac · Aug 25, 2020

This is my story, and I suppose it's as valid as anyone's.

I started playing pool seriously about 14 years ago (at the ripe age of 53). When I started buying cues, I just played with whatever tip that came on the cue, usually Triangles or Le Pros.

Eventually, like many, I caught the layered tip fever. I must have went through at least 15 different brands of layered tips from soft to hard ones. My game never got any better (or worse).

So, a couple years ago I figured that why should I pay 25-30 dollars for a tip that performs (for me) no better than a one-dollar Triangle? So now I've been using Triangles for a couple of years now and have absolutely no complaints.

Same with chalk. I use and have luck with Masters as opposed to a $25 single cube.....but that's an entirely different (and overly discussed) thread subject. :thumbup:

Maniac

philly · Aug 25, 2020

Maniac said:
This is my story, and I suppose it's as valid as anyone's.

I started playing pool seriously about 14 years ago (at the ripe age of 53). When I started buying cues, I just played with whatever tip that came on the cue, usually Triangles or Le Pros.

Eventually, like many, I caught the layered tip fever. I must have went through at least 15 different brands of layered tips from soft to hard ones. My game never got any better (or worse).

So, a couple years ago I figured that why should I pay 25-30 dollars for a tip that performs (for me) no better than a one-dollar Triangle? So now I've been using Triangles for a couple of years now and have absolutely no complaints.

Same with chalk. I use and have luck with Masters as opposed to a $25 single cube.....but that's an entirely different (and overly discussed) thread subject. :thumbup:

Maniac

Exactly.
Triangles and Masters.
Keep It Simple Stupid. (KISS)
It's pretty much the Indian not the arrow.
There is so much promotion in the marketing of pool products.
Rally don't care, pay for and play with whatever you want.
We complicate the game.

A lights out player will take a stick off the wall and beat everyone in the room.

Layered tips - what am I missing - HELP

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