Inside English vs Outside English

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've noticed a number of our players in our poolroom, even some of the better ones, are just not nearly as comfortable using inside english for positioning as they are outside english. As I recall, many years ago, when first learning pool on my own which I assume is/was similar for most players, when I first started experimenting using english/spin on the CB it was outside english that I felt most comfortable with. I can say that I got to where even when I didn't need it for positioning, on angled cut shots I fell in to the habit of feeling more confident in my shotmaking when using some outside english.

It wasn't until after a number of years of playing that I really started feeling comfortable experimenting with inside english, and all the options it can provide in terms in offering additional positioning paths to get the CB where you need it for your next shot. After many years of playing, I am now to the point where I'd say if I have an option of positioning paths for the CB to take to get to an area on the table needed for the next ball, I will often choose the high inside english positioning route and going 2-3 rails for shape as opposed to the low outside english positioning route which may entail less rails for the CB to travel. This is puzzling to some of the younger players here when I'm playing with them that I would choose that option. For me, I just feel like the speed control is much more predictable when using the high inside english option, even if it requires the CB to travel a further distance and more rails to get to the desired area for the next shot.

Just curious as to other players here in your learning process as a pool player, feeling comfortable using various spins, and whether or not you now prefer either outside or inside english if you have an option in CB positioning routes? I stress to our younger players in here, that to become a complete player, you have to get to where you feel comfortable using all kinds of english, at any speed, for shotmaking and for positioning.
 
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MattPoland

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When I look at a shot, I can see the massive spiderweb of angles I can get the CB to track down with all the english options. Only a handful of them track me to my desired position area. Those trim down to the ones that either require the least CB movement or the best path to travel along and into the position area (not across it). Those trim down to the ones that feel easiest to execute (favoring no spin of possible). If that leads to inside spin, I’m completely comfortable with that. I agree high-inside is very comfortable. I usually only lose comfort on low-inside spin with a back-cut to track the CB away from the target pocket into a 2-3 rail path bouncing near the other pocket.


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philly

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Maybe I missed the point but shouldn't you use the english that will get you proper shape whether it be inside or outside. I do agree with you that most players are more comfortable using outside (running) english but that doesn't mean it is the correct english.
 

336Robin

Multiverse Operative
Silver Member
I've noticed a number of our players in our poolroom, even some of the better ones, are just not nearly as comfortable using inside english for positioning as they are outside english. As I recall, many years ago, when first learning pool on my own which I assume is/was similar for most players, when I first started experimenting using english/spin on the CB it was outside english that I felt most comfortable with. I can say that I got to where even when I didn't need it for positioning, on angled cut shots I fell in to the habit of feeling more confident in my shotmaking when using some outside english.

It wasn't until after a number of years of playing that I really started feeling comfortable experimenting with inside english, and all the options it can provide in terms in offering additional positioning paths to get the CB where you need it for your next shot. After many years of playing, I am now to the point where I'd say if I have an option of positioning paths for the CB to take to get to an area on the table needed for the next ball, I will often choose the high inside english positioning route and going 2-3 rails for shape as opposed to the low outside english positioning route which may entail less rails for the CB to travel. This is puzzling to some of the younger players here when I'm playing with them that I would choose that option. For me, I just feel like the speed control is much more predictable when using the high inside english option, even it requires the CB to travel a further distance and more rails to get to the desired area for the next shot.

Just curious as to other players here in your learning process as a pool player, feeling comfortable using various spins, and whether or not you now prefer either outside or inside english, if you have an option in CB positioning routes? I stress to our younger players in here, that to become a complete player, you have to get to where you feel comfortable using all kinds of english, at any speed, for shotmaking and for positioning.

When I came back to playing in 2005, I made it a hobby to study this. You're right. I think its easier to remember the amount of forward thrust needed to come off of 3 rails than it is to come off one with Outside if you have the open path.

The outside shot is the most direct but it depends on the user and how much feel he has. That outside shot gets over hit a lot.
 

MattPoland

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When I came back to playing in 2005, I made it a hobby to study this. You're right. I think its easier to remember the amount of forward thrust needed to come off of 3 rails than it is to come off one with Outside if you have the open path.



The outside shot is the most direct but it depends on the user and how much feel he has. That outside shot gets over hit a lot.


More and more I find myself taking the three rail high-inside track because I’m not always 100% confident I can avoid the side pocket with low-outside (or just low). It’s probably an area I need to work on so I know for sure if I’m safe or not. But when in doubt I do trust going forward more.


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ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Maybe I missed the point but shouldn't you use the english that will get you proper shape whether it be inside or outside. I do agree with you that most players are more comfortable using outside (running) english but that doesn't mean it is the correct english.
I feel that on a number of shots, there can be more than one correct positioning option / path for the CB to travel, just as there can be often be more than one desired pocket for the OB, to be playing position for. All players need to play to their strengths and what is most comfortable for them and gives them the best chance of both pocketing the shot and getting the CB to the desired area for the next shot. Sometimes, some patterns may just suit a player's strengths better than the most simple, obvious positioning route, IMO.
 

Michael Andros

tiny balls, GIANT pockets
Silver Member
I've noticed a number of our players in our poolroom, even some of the better ones, are just not nearly as comfortable using inside english for positioning as they are outside english. As I recall, many years ago, when first learning pool on my own which I assume is/was similar for most players, when I first started experimenting using english/spin on the CB it was outside english that I felt most comfortable with. I can say that I got to where even when I didn't need it for positioning, on angled cut shots I fell in to the habit of feeling more confident in my shotmaking when using some outside english.

It wasn't until after a number of years of playing that I really started feeling comfortable experimenting with inside english, and all the options it can provide in terms in offering additional positioning paths to get the CB where you need it for your next shot. After many years of playing, I am now to the point where I'd say if I have an option of positioning paths for the CB to take to get to an area on the table needed for the next ball, I will often choose the high inside english positioning route and going 2-3 rails for shape as opposed to the low outside english positioning route which may entail less rails for the CB to travel. This is puzzling to some of the younger players here when I'm playing with them that I would choose that option. For me, I just feel like the speed control is much more predictable when using the high inside english option, even it requires the CB to travel a further distance and more rails to get to the desired area for the next shot.

Just curious as to other players here in your learning process as a pool player, feeling comfortable using various spins, and whether or not you now prefer either outside or inside english, if you have an option in CB positioning routes? I stress to our younger players in here, that to become a complete player, you have to get to where you feel comfortable using all kinds of english, at any speed, for shotmaking and for positioning.


When I was a very young kid, trying my best to learn this goofy game, a great, ( and I mean **great** ) older player told me the less distance the CB travels, the better off you are. Outside english follows the natural angle of any given shot, but, it also means traveling 2 to 3 times, or more, the distance whitey travels using inside english for the same shot. For me, experience has shown "turning the CB loose" can, and many times does, invite bad things to happen. Inside english fights the natural angle and allows me to draw a much straighter line to where I need to get, if that makes any sense. So, instead of going with the natural angle and going 3 or 4 rails, I end up going 1 rail and 1/3 the total distance. This is, over the long haul, much, much more efficient. Again, the less distance, the less chance of disaster.

Now, that said, I have had a few great players, tell me to always go with the angle and always flow "up the funnel" towards your position spot. This assures that even if your speed control is off, whitey will still be in line for position, simply a bit farther away than you planned. I understand the sense of that, I just happen to disagree. I feel if you practice hard enough, your speed control will be spot on often enough to justify the few mistakes ( by going "across" the funnel and not "up" it ) made by not traveling the far greater distances you would taking the natural angle ( outside english ). Again, if that makes any sense.

Further, on extremely thin cuts, you're often required to shoot hard to assure getting the OB to the pocket. Using outside english, again, "turns the CB loose", inviting bad things to happen. Inside english on those thin cuts means much more CB control.

Simply MHO.
 

stevenw00d

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Those trim down to the ones that either require the least CB movement or the best path to travel along and into the position area (not across it).

This is where I am. I very seldom use English because I haven't practiced it enough, so I can predict center ball much more accurately. I have tried to focus on what gives me the best route into the position area instead of coming across the area. This is a different process for me as I have always looked for the shortest distance, but the benefits are very clear (larger margin of error).
 

Michael Andros

tiny balls, GIANT pockets
Silver Member
I stress to our younger players in here, that to become a complete player, you have to get to where you feel comfortable using all kinds of english, at any speed, for shotmaking and for positioning.


I devised a drill many years ago that helped me tremendously and it's one I've shared with many people trying to learn this game. I won't hijack this thread with it but I call it "The clock drill" and I will open another thread to explain it. In short, it *forces* you to be creative in playing position.
 

tim913

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Maybe I missed the point but shouldn't you use the english that will get you proper shape whether it be inside or outside. I do agree with you that most players are more comfortable using outside (running) english but that doesn't mean it is the correct english.

I agree, the shot and position after the shot determines what english, if any, I use. I am not going to go 2 or 3 rails if I don't need to either
 

Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Both can be high risk if you dont know where the cue ball is going. I can think of shots where outside will take the cue ball comfortably to more or less where I want it to be, but inside will make things a bit less predictable. Can think of ones the other way too. Generally, outside is easier for a host of reasons - less important the precise GPS location end up white ball but will get there or thereabouts, doesn't matter if you hit a little too soft or a little too hard will still be ok, running English bit more natural than the othe one, just easier, that kind of thing.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Some thoughts from a similar thread several years ago:

I think low and outside spin are preferred simply because they're more familiar, because they come up more often. That's because we're most often shooting toward a corner pocket at a ball that's relatively near that corner, but don't want the cue ball continuing in that direction (because most of the table is in the other direction).
Inside english usually reduces throw too, but for the opposite reason that outside english does. Outside english reduces throw by decreasing the CB/OB surfaces rubbing speed (ideally to zero), and inside english reduces throw by increasing the rubbing speed. Too-fast rubbing speed reduces throw in the same way that a fast-spinning car tire "peels out" on the pavement - friction between rubbing surfaces (the cause of throw) is reduced by excessive speed.

How much sidespin is too much? 50% of maximum sidespin (about 1/4" tip offset from centerball) is too much inside spin for every cut shot, and that amount drops gradually to zero inside spin as the cut goes from almost straight-in to a half-ball cut.

For cuts thinner than half-ball you actually have to add outside spin to produce maximum throw (this is a little-known reason to be wary of using outside spin to decrease throw for those cuts).
Of course the cue ball has no clue whether it's inside or outside spin, so it squirts the same both ways. Maybe the difference is in how the CB/OB interact.


With outside english:
- squirt produces undercut
- spin throw produces overcut
- tend to cancel each other

With inside english:
- squirt produces overcut
- spin reduces counteracting throw
- tend to overcut
pj
chgo
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I play my patterns so that I can use inside on the majority of my shots. I use outside, if needed, but prefer inside.

I notice that most of the people I've played with who use outside all the time are "spinners" who lose the cue ball a lot of the time.

I think inside gives you a "tighter grip on the leash".

I would say I use a "three letter acronym", but then somebody would recommend the comment should be reserved for the Aiming Forum, even though it has nothing to do with aiming.
 
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Michael Andros

tiny balls, GIANT pockets
Silver Member
I play my patterns so that I can use inside on the majority of my shots. I use outside, if needed, but prefer inside.

I notice that most of the people I've played with who use outside all the time are "spinners" who lose the cue ball a lot of the time.

I think inside gives you a "tighter grip on the leash".

I would say I use a "three letter acronym", but then somebody would recommend the comment should be reserved for the Aiming Forum, even though it has nothing to do with aiming.

Yup... 'zactly.
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Why tell them anything at all?
All you're doing is helping them develop into better players who will end up taking your money away from you.
Just keep on robbing them.....that's exactly what they intend to do to you if they can.
This is ONLY my opinion of poolrooms...it is not meant to start a fight here, change anyone's thinking, or cause trouble.
It's my OPINION only...so please don't 'batter me'.
Sorry to disagree, but I'm the room owner and operator, I am 61, and I don't gamble with our regulars unless they are on my same skill level, and even then it's just cheap sets with players that I know can afford it. Your way of thinking is an extremely selfish viewpoint, particularly if it pertains to room proprietors like myself. I certainly hope your view is not shared by most of the regular posters here.

I feel that the better our regular players can play, the more pleasure they'll get out of this game, the longer they'll keep playing (each session and over the years to come), and thus the more time they'll spend here. I wish when I was learning this game that I had better players to learn from, share their knowledge, and offer suggestions, that would have sped up my learning process to become a better player.
 
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WinnerBreaks

Registered
I was taught how to shoot using center cue ball only. While practicing my coach wouldn't allow me to use english. In matches, sure; but not during practice sessions. Over time the english I elected to use during matches slowly diminished. Only after a year or so did my coach start working on my english during practice.

Theory being; if you can judge natural angles and momentum; you'll 1) not have to use as much English 2) Not have to use English as frequently and 3) begin deferring away from English in situations where it's simply not required.

This all being said, I still use English on occasion but not nearly as frequently as I had been previously. My cue ball control has improved quite quickly. I use whatever English is going to get me on the OB with the least amount of CB travel. I think that's how it is supposed to be.

Simplify the table.
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Some thoughts from a similar thread several years ago:




pj
chgo
I think you forgot to add "swerve" in to your equation for effects of outside and inside english, in regards to factors you need to consider in the aiming process, depending on how elevated your cue is through the stroke on any given shot.
 

tucson9ball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've noticed a number of our players in our poolroom, even some of the better ones, are just not nearly as comfortable using inside english for positioning as they are outside english. As I recall, many years ago, when first learning pool on my own which I assume is/was similar for most players, when I first started experimenting using english/spin on the CB it was outside english that I felt most comfortable with. I can say that I got to where even when I didn't need it for positioning, on angled cut shots I fell in to the habit of feeling more confident in my shotmaking when using some outside english.

It wasn't until after a number of years of playing that I really started feeling comfortable experimenting with inside english, and all the options it can provide in terms in offering additional positioning paths to get the CB where you need it for your next shot. After many years of playing, I am now to the point where I'd say if I have an option of positioning paths for the CB to take to get to an area on the table needed for the next ball, I will often choose the high inside english positioning route and going 2-3 rails for shape as opposed to the low outside english positioning route which may entail less rails for the CB to travel. This is puzzling to some of the younger players here when I'm playing with them that I would choose that option. For me, I just feel like the speed control is much more predictable when using the high inside english option, even it requires the CB to travel a further distance and more rails to get to the desired area for the next shot.

Just curious as to other players here in your learning process as a pool player, feeling comfortable using various spins, and whether or not you now prefer either outside or inside english, if you have an option in CB positioning routes? I stress to our younger players in here, that to become a complete player, you have to get to where you feel comfortable using all kinds of english, at any speed, for shotmaking and for positioning.

I think 90% of pool players are more comfortable using outside English.
For me, here is a rule I try to follow. If the cue ball is more than 4/5ft from the object ball, I try not to use very much English at all. It does no good to get that perfect shape if the English makes you miss the shot.
Ok, lets say the cue ball is only 3ft from the object ball. You know where you want to get for perfect shape on your next shot.....which English gets you there easier?
Other factors on which English you use may be the layout of the table, are other balls in the way of using outside or inside English? If so, you need to adjust and use what you need.
To play this game at a high level, you need to have both sets of English in your arsenal. This will separate the players from the bangers.
 

WinnerBreaks

Registered
I think 90% of pool players are more comfortable using outside English.
For me, here is a rule I try to follow. If the cue ball is more than 4/5ft from the object ball, I try not to use very much English at all. It does no good to get that perfect shape if the English makes you miss the shot.
Ok, lets say the cue ball is only 3ft from the object ball. You know where you want to get for perfect shape on your next shot.....which English gets you there easier?
Other factors on which English you use may be the layout of the table, are other balls in the way of using outside or inside English? If so, you need to adjust and use what you need.
To play this game at a high level, you need to have both sets of English in your arsenal. This will separate the players from the bangers.

Distance does play a role in the equation that is 'CB throw' (swerve/deflection or whatever word you elect to denote it as) but the shaft you're using, your stroke and how hard said stroke is play equally significant roles.

Although distance is a factor; it's important to learn that it isn't the end all be all variable to consider.

If you're timid about the English going in to a particular shot and you're dead set on not putting anything on it; the least you could do is dab a little draw or follow on it to make the follow up shot just that much more bearable.
 
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