Question About Rails and cushions....

Cardigan Kid

Cardigan Kid

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have an old gold crown 2, bought used from a closing pool hall. The mechanic who installed the table in my basement has since passed away. During the install he suspected that the rails were not all from the same table, so there were variances in the rubber. Five years later, the rails play very different and are starting to take a different appearance.

One rail has a sharper edge to the rubber (the edge the ball contacts), while another is rounded off and blunted quite a bit. Another rail, when contacted by a ball at medium speed, causes the ball to slightly jump.

Two questions I have are...
1. Should the cushion edge contact a ball at the exact center, or just above? Is there a standard measurement?

2. Of the edge of the cushion is not sharp, would that cause a skip on the ball upon contact?
 
bradsh98

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Silver Member
Cardigan Kid said:
I have an old gold crown 2, bought used from a closing pool hall. The mechanic who installed the table in my basement has since passed away. During the install he suspected that the rails were not all from the same table, so there were variances in the rubber. Five years later, the rails play very different and are starting to take a different appearance.

One rail has a sharper edge to the rubber (the edge the ball contacts), while another is rounded off and blunted quite a bit. Another rail, when contacted by a ball at medium speed, causes the ball to slightly jump.

Two questions I have are...
1. Should the cushion edge contact a ball at the exact center, or just above? Is there a standard measurement?

2. Of the edge of the cushion is not sharp, would that cause a skip on the ball upon contact?
Click to expand...

There is a standard for cushion height. The measurement from the slate to the nose of the cushion should be approximately 1 7/16" (assuming a standard ball diameter of 2 1/4").

The ball-hop that you are experiencing could be a much larger issue than the difference in cushion nose radius. While there are different cushion profiles available, there are also a number of different cushion manufacturers, each using slightly different dimensions. Some manufacturers use a larger nose radius than others. However, there are also a few different commonly available cushion profiles.

See the following link to view the different cushion profiles available:

http://www.seyberts.com/images/products/strrxxx.jpg

The older Gold Crowns came with Monarch cushions installed, which are no longer available. Monarch cushions had their own profile, falling somewhere between the dimensions of the k55 and k66 profiles.

When mechanics replace cushions on these older Gold Crowns, there are a few different options that are commonly used:

-The Monarch cushions could be replaced with a k55 profile cushion, though the playfield will no longer have a 2:1 size ratio, and the nose height will be just slightly higher than with the Monarch cushions. Balls will tend to bank just slightly long with this setup.

-Sometimes, k66 cushions will be used, though the mechanic must be very careful during the installation, to maintain the proper nose height of the cushion. However, the playfield will remain a 2:1 size ratio. Balls will tend to bank just slightly short with this setup.

-The best option to replacing Monarch cushions is to have a reputable mechanic modify the rails, to more appropriately accept a k55 profile cushion. If your rails are not a matched set, I would suggest this to be the best option for achieving optimal performance. However, the upgrade can be quite costly.

In your case, you can fairly easily determine whether you have mis-matched cushion profiles by doing a few quick measurements. On each rail, measure from the nose of the cushion to the formica (where the cloth meets the top of the rail). This dimension SHOULD be 2". However, this dimension may be about 2 1/8" if you have k55 cushions installed. Regardless of that, you just want to make sure that the measurement is consistent on all 6 rails. If it varies by 1/8" or more, you may likely have a combination of different cushion profiles installed.


For more info on table specifications, see the following link:

http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/WPA_Tournament_Table_Equipment_Specifications
 
Mr. Bond

Mr. Bond

Orbis Non Sufficit
Gold Member
Silver Member
Couldn't have said it better myself.
I will add that sometimes, especially if the rails were mismatched, the variances in the "roundness" of the noses are simply due to different amounts of tension in the cloth.

bradsh98 said:
There is a standard for cushion height. The measurement from the slate to the nose of the cushion should be approximately 1 7/16" (assuming a standard ball diameter of 2 1/4").

The ball-hop that you are experiencing could be a much larger issue than the difference in cushion nose radius. While there are different cushion profiles available, there are also a number of different cushion manufacturers, each using slightly different dimensions. Some manufacturers use a larger nose radius than others. However, there are also a few different commonly available cushion profiles.

See the following link to view the different cushion profiles available:

http://www.seyberts.com/images/products/strrxxx.jpg

The older Gold Crowns came with Monarch cushions installed, which are no longer available. Monarch cushions had their own profile, falling somewhere between the dimensions of the k55 and k66 profiles.

When mechanics replace cushions on these older Gold Crowns, there are a few different options that are commonly used:

-The Monarch cushions could be replaced with a k55 profile cushion, though the playfield will no longer have a 2:1 size ratio, and the nose height will be just slightly higher than with the Monarch cushions. Balls will tend to bank just slightly long with this setup.

-Sometimes, k66 cushions will be used, though the mechanic must be very careful during the installation, to maintain the proper nose height of the cushion. However, the playfield will remain a 2:1 size ratio. Balls will tend to bank just slightly short with this setup.

-The best option to replacing Monarch cushions is to have a reputable mechanic modify the rails, to more appropriately accept a k55 profile cushion. If your rails are not a matched set, I would suggest this to be the best option for achieving optimal performance. However, the upgrade can be quite costly.

In your case, you can fairly easily determine whether you have mis-matched cushion profiles by doing a few quick measurements. On each rail, measure from the nose of the cushion to the formica (where the cloth meets the top of the rail). This dimension SHOULD be 2". However, this dimension may be about 2 1/8" if you have k55 cushions installed. Regardless of that, you just want to make sure that the measurement is consistent on all 6 rails. If it varies by 1/8" or more, you may likely have a combination of different cushion profiles installed.


For more info on table specifications, see the following link:

http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/WPA_Tournament_Table_Equipment_Specifications
Click to expand...
 
Cardigan Kid

Cardigan Kid

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is all great information here. I'm going around my table now and it's clear I have some problems. I always knew it was showing it's age, but while practicing kicks, I was getting uneven results with many two rail our even single rail kicks. I am not pro level at all but I used to think it was my stroke until practicing on a friend table and my practice kicks and banks were actually generating correct results.

Using the measurements described above. Starting at the head rail and going clockwise, I'm measuring...2"...2"...2"...2 1/16"....1 14/16"...2 " from nose of the cushion to Formica.

The nose of the cushion on all rails are very blunted, so to get an exact measurement is tough...but the two suspect rails...I measure 1 5/16" and 1 4/16" from center of cushion nose to slate. Three of the other rails fall into the 1 7/16" measurement, with another at 1 6/16 "

This really explains things why my table plays uneven.

Another question I have is the sides of the pockets...at the turning stone tournament I was able to look at the diamond tables up close and saw the nice points the edges come to at the pockets, all of my rails and some are a lot worse than others have sunk to where there is no longer a point but a blunt slope, losing about 2/16" off the rail where a point should be.

It almost appears like a snooker pocket.

Would this explain why some shots down the rail rattle and hang up. Once again, I am no pro, but there are some nights where I could've sworn I hit the shot perfect and it doesn't fall.
 
perfectpocketz

perfectpocketz

Banned
All cushions have different profiles...66 cushions....55 cushions and so on.
The 1 7/16th applies to the nose of the cushion contact on the 2-1/4 balls.....but that doesn't mean the cushions have been installed correctly.
The sub rail height has everything to do with the nose on the cushion sitting at 1-7/16ths.
Some 66 cushions have a nose height of 1-3/8ths
If the sub rail has the height at 1-3/4....and you set the nose height at 1-7/16 the cushions are going to play fast and more than likely have ball hop.
So you just can't say the nose of the cushion should be at 1-7/16ths....the sub rail height has everything to do with nose height of the cushion...a long with the profile of the cushions.
First off you need to understand what dimensions your cushions are...what profile cushion...what sub rail height....then you know where the cushion should sit and what nose height you should use.

The profile of the cushion....the sub rail height...are what make the cushions play correctly.
Remember...just using 1-7/16ths nose height...doesn't make the cushions play right....anyone can set the nose height at 1-7/16ths....from any height of sub rail....and that's not right.
 
Cardigan Kid

Cardigan Kid

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
perfectpocketz said:
All cushions have different profiles...66 cushions....55 cushions and so on.
The 1 7/16th applies to the nose of the cushion contact on the 2-1/4 balls.....but that doesn't mean the cushions have been installed correctly.
The sub rail height has everything to do with the nose on the cushion sitting at 1-7/16ths.
Some 66 cushions have a nose height of 1-3/8ths
If the sub rail has the height at 1-3/4....and you set the nose height at 1-7/16 the cushions are going to play fast and more than likely have ball hop.
So you just can't say the nose of the cushion should be at 1-7/16ths....the sub rail height has everything to do with nose height of the cushion...a long with the profile of the cushions.
First off you need to understand what dimensions your cushions are...what profile cushion...what sub rail height....then you know where the cushion should sit and what nose height you should use.

The profile of the cushion....the sub rail height...are what make the cushions play correctly.
Remember...just using 1-7/16ths nose height...doesn't make the cushions play right....anyone can set the nose height at 1-7/16ths....from any height of sub rail....and that's not right.
Click to expand...

This is all really good information. I appreciate it.
 
bradsh98

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Silver Member
perfectpocketz said:
All cushions have different profiles...66 cushions....55 cushions and so on.
The 1 7/16th applies to the nose of the cushion contact on the 2-1/4 balls.....but that doesn't mean the cushions have been installed correctly.
The sub rail height has everything to do with the nose on the cushion sitting at 1-7/16ths.
Some 66 cushions have a nose height of 1-3/8ths
If the sub rail has the height at 1-3/4....and you set the nose height at 1-7/16 the cushions are going to play fast and more than likely have ball hop.
So you just can't say the nose of the cushion should be at 1-7/16ths....the sub rail height has everything to do with nose height of the cushion...a long with the profile of the cushions.
First off you need to understand what dimensions your cushions are...what profile cushion...what sub rail height....then you know where the cushion should sit and what nose height you should use.

The profile of the cushion....the sub rail height...are what make the cushions play correctly.
Remember...just using 1-7/16ths nose height...doesn't make the cushions play right....anyone can set the nose height at 1-7/16ths....from any height of sub rail....and that's not right.
Click to expand...

Mark,

Thanks for clarifying this.

To save a little bit of confusion, the table in question is a Gold Crown 2, which has a subrail height of 1 11/16" (approximately). For a Gold Crown 2, 1 7/16" nose height should be acceptable, regardless of the cushion profile used. Granted, you could adjust this height, to better 'tune' the table, but that is not what the question was. For a non-mechanic, that will likely use a tape measure to check nose height, 1 7/16" is the dimension that you'd like to see.

If this table were a cheap table, with a shorter subrail height, the nose height may need to be lower than 1 7/16", to optimize the contact angle of the cushion with a 2 1/4" diameter ball.
 
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