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An interesting scenario almost happened in 14.1 League Playoffs.
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stevekur1
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An interesting scenario almost happened in 14.1 League Playoffs. - 06-12-2019, 11:52 AM

How would you all rule this: Calling Bob Jewitt

Player A was playing his last rack, came up to his final breakshot where he figured he needed 5 more balls after the break. He makes the break and the 5 balls he thought he needed. Walked over to his opponent (player B) to shake his hand, and his opponent informs him he needed 6 after the break. meanwhile Player A did not play position for anything.

At the time when Player A made his final ball, he almost lost control and swept the balls off the table because he thought he won.

If he had done this how do you rule this ?

as a sidenote his opponent needed 21, he came to the table and ran the remainder of the rack and missed the breakball (he could of lost because of his mental err...lol

Thanks in Advance
-Steve


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Bob Jewett
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06-12-2019, 02:40 PM

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Originally Posted by stevekur1 View Post
... At the time when Player A made his final ball, he almost lost control and swept the balls off the table because he thought he won.

If he had done this how do you rule this ?...
Raking the balls is unsportsmanlike conduct -- it clearly makes it impossible to play the game by the rules. What the penalty is depends on the official in charge. Sorry, Mr. TD.

One appropriate penalty for the rake would be forfeit of the game. Another would be a 15-point penalty, put the balls back where they were according to the seated player, and give him the choice of shooting from there or forcing his opponent to break.

In the old days the scorekeeper/ref would announce "Playing for three," at the appropriate time. In a tournament the announcement came, Irving Crane planned his final three shots and left the cue ball in Siberia at the end. Then the scorekeeper piped up, "Oops, you need one more ball, Mr. Crane. I had the count wrong."

Crane lost the match and took the organizers to court.

If I tell my opponent, "I think you need two" and it's three, he wins if he makes two, regardless of the recount. I don't see a really good solution if it's the ref/scorekeeper who makes the mistake. I think you have to set a time limit on score protests. What if someone comes up with a video an hour later showing that a player got 19 points for the second rack in his run because his opponent got confused when flipping the scoreboard cards?

I think the golf people have thought about this a lot. You gotta sign your scorecard and heaven help you if a video later surfaces. Maybe. I think golf has a recent ruling on that one.


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Dan White
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06-12-2019, 03:32 PM

It is a requirement that the seated player inform his opponent when he is on 2 fouls, or else the third foul does not result in the 3 foul penalty. At least I think that is the way it works.

Similarly, is there a rule REQUIRING the seated player to state that his opponent is "shooting for 3"? Maybe not, but seems to me that would preempt any penalty from raking the balls if it was never stated.


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06-12-2019, 07:50 PM

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Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
... Similarly, is there a rule REQUIRING the seated player to state that his opponent is "shooting for 3"? Maybe not, but seems to me that would preempt any penalty from raking the balls if it was never stated.
Somehow that seems the wrong way around. If my opponent has said nothing and I rake the balls without confirmation of having won, I think I should be penalized. If he has ventured an opinion about the score and I take it as correct, I can't be penalized for raking when having met my opponent's stated game score.


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06-13-2019, 02:34 AM

I run a 14.1 league. Here is how I would call it.

If the sitting player tells the shooter that he/she needs 5 to win... then says "oops" you actually needed 6... that's too bad, the shooter wins.

If the shooter made the error then it's a 15 point foul and shooter has to play an opening break shot... play continues.

All this being said. All players should verify the total and the win before raking a table... actually, no one should ever rake a table... it just rude.
  
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06-13-2019, 05:52 AM

I do not feel that the opponent should have to tell him prior to shooting of how many points he needs. And there is no referee or scorekeeper at the table. the players are responsible for their scoring.

I feel it is up to the shooter in this instance to know how many points he/she needs before shooting. I also feel it should be a -15 for the unsportsmanlike and balls have to be racked with that shooter having to break and satisfying the rules of the opening break.


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06-13-2019, 06:23 AM

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Originally Posted by zencues.com View Post
I run a 14.1 league. Here is how I would call it.

If the sitting player tells the shooter that he/she needs 5 to win... then says "oops" you actually needed 6... that's too bad, the shooter wins.

If the shooter made the error then it's a 15 point foul and shooter has to play an opening break shot... play continues.

All this being said. All players should verify the total and the win before raking a table... actually, no one should ever rake a table... it just rude.
Totally agree with all points stated..... specially when no player should ever rake the balls.... I will make this a rule in my League.
  
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06-13-2019, 06:45 AM

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Originally Posted by 14-1StraightMan View Post
Totally agree with all points stated..... specially when no player should ever rake the balls.... I will make this a rule in my League.
That's why I want the correct ruling to make it in mine !


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06-13-2019, 08:04 AM

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Originally Posted by stevekur1 View Post
... I also feel it should be a -15 for the unsportsmanlike and balls have to be racked with that shooter having to break and satisfying the rules of the opening break.
There is a problem with this: Suppose there are 12 balls on the table all broken open and the seated player needs 7 when the foul happens. If the balls could be put back where they were, he would have an easy run. Instead they are racked up and the fouling player shoots an opening break shot and maybe gets a total safe.

At one point someone put a special rule into 14.1 to handle situations like this. I assume that some player somewhere made a nasty move and someone decided there had to be a specific penalty. For example, suppose you are on two fouls, and you have no safe but you do have a long shot that will break up the remaining cluster. You go for it and miss. You "cleverly" keep your bridge hand on the table until a ball comes around and hits it. Third foul. You shoot an opening break shot instead of giving up a totally open table that will get your opponent started well. The special rule that was put in gave the seated player more choices, like maybe even ball in hand if he wanted it. That rule has subsequently gone away.


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06-13-2019, 09:21 AM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Raking the balls is unsportsmanlike conduct -- it clearly makes it impossible to play the game by the rules. What the penalty is depends on the official in charge. Sorry, Mr. TD.

One appropriate penalty for the rake would be forfeit of the game. Another would be a 15-point penalty, put the balls back where they were according to the seated player, and give him the choice of shooting from there or forcing his opponent to break.

In the old days the scorekeeper/ref would announce "Playing for three," at the appropriate time. In a tournament the announcement came, Irving Crane planned his final three shots and left the cue ball in Siberia at the end. Then the scorekeeper piped up, "Oops, you need one more ball, Mr. Crane. I had the count wrong."

Crane lost the match and took the organizers to court.

If I tell my opponent, "I think you need two" and it's three, he wins if he makes two, regardless of the recount. I don't see a really good solution if it's the ref/scorekeeper who makes the mistake. I think you have to set a time limit on score protests. What if someone comes up with a video an hour later showing that a player got 19 points for the second rack in his run because his opponent got confused when flipping the scoreboard cards?

I think the golf people have thought about this a lot. You gotta sign your scorecard and heaven help you if a video later surfaces. Maybe. I think golf has a recent ruling on that one.

I heard DiLiberto talk about a match in which Crane took it to court or threatened to and the opponent agreed to play another match with a long race - 500 or 1000 which Crane subsequently won.

Not sure if that is the same match or not but in the instance you describe I'd say he had a legitimate beef.
  
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06-13-2019, 10:18 AM

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Originally Posted by alstl View Post
I heard DiLiberto talk about a match in which Crane took it to court or threatened to and the opponent agreed to play another match with a long race - 500 or 1000 which Crane subsequently won.

Not sure if that is the same match or not but in the instance you describe I'd say he had a legitimate beef.
That sounds like it could have been the same match. I don't think I've ever seen a written report of the event. I don't imagine tournament organizers would make the same mistake twice with Crane.

Speaking of TDs' mistakes in Crane's matches, I was watching one of his matches and he planned for a break shot off the head spot for a ball in the rack at the end. He frequently played for that shot and nearly always hit it perfectly. I think he could tell you pretty confidently which object ball would be next. Anyway, the spot was in the wrong place. Crane got down on the shot and realized it didn't look right. It took them a while to correct the problem.


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06-14-2019, 06:16 AM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
There is a problem with this: Suppose there are 12 balls on the table all broken open and the seated player needs 7 when the foul happens. If the balls could be put back where they were, he would have an easy run. Instead they are racked up and the fouling player shoots an opening break shot and maybe gets a total safe.

At one point someone put a special rule into 14.1 to handle situations like this. I assume that some player somewhere made a nasty move and someone decided there had to be a specific penalty. For example, suppose you are on two fouls, and you have no safe but you do have a long shot that will break up the remaining cluster. You go for it and miss. You "cleverly" keep your bridge hand on the table until a ball comes around and hits it. Third foul. You shoot an opening break shot instead of giving up a totally open table that will get your opponent started well. The special rule that was put in gave the seated player more choices, like maybe even ball in hand if he wanted it. That rule has subsequently gone away.
Good point.. Putting balls back into place after "raking" would be very hard, depending how many balls are on the table... This is clearly Unsportsmanlike Conduct and the game would be over with the sitting player needing so few balls to win. If the sitting player refused to go ahead with a rerack/opening break by the player who committed the raking... That decision would be left up to the league director deciding if the sitting players is declared the winner or if the match should continue. I would rule that the match would be over.
  
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06-14-2019, 04:26 PM

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Originally Posted by zencues.com View Post
I run a 14.1 league. Here is how I would call it.

If the sitting player tells the shooter that he/she needs 5 to win... then says "oops" you actually needed 6... that's too bad, the shooter wins.

If the shooter made the error then it's a 15 point foul and shooter has to play an opening break shot... play continues.

All this being said. All players should verify the total and the win before raking a table... actually, no one should ever rake a table... it just rude.
I agree also. If your opponent states categorically that you need a specific # to win, then he has locked that in. But, if he only ‘suggests’ a probable # is likely, then the shooter should lose the match if he rakes the balls before the win count is official. Important lessons there for both (loose talk/unsportsmanlike conduct).

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06-15-2019, 03:10 PM

I would say (in 14.1) if both players agree that the match is over and shake hands the match is over despite the real final score. If a shooting player rakes the balls before this thinking he'd won, it's clearly unsportsmanlike conduct. Now WPA Regulations wording for unsportsmanlike conduct give pretty much the freedom for the referee or TD to impose any kind of a penalty on this. It could be loss of match or ejection from the tournament. Also the level of play should be taken into consideration: if the level of play is high the penalties should be more severe. Now on my opinion you could take the hard way and make player A lose the match, but you could also deduct 15 points from player A and make him play the opening shot. You could also award 15 additional points to player B and make the A play the opening shot. The freedom is on the referee/TD. Sometimes it is a good idea to announce the tournament/league regulations for these kind of special situations beforehand.

WPA Rule Regulations 6.:
"6. PENALIZING UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT
The rules and regulations give the referee and other officials considerable latitude in penalizing unsportsmanlike conduct. Several factors should be considered in such decisions, including previous conduct, previous warnings, how serious the offense is, and information that the players may have been given at the Players’ Meeting at the start of the tournament. In addition, the level of competition may be considered since players at the top levels can be expected to be fully familiar with the rules and regulations, while relative beginners may be unfamiliar with how the rules are normally applied."


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