AzBilliards.com Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) for measuring table "toughness"
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(#721)
dr_dave
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04-05-2019, 05:38 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Cardigan Kid Doctor Dave, is there any sort of difficulty percentage that can be factored into the TDF. For example a table that is a 1.00 with broken in/worn cloth would play more difficult than a 1.02 table that has brand new cloth. I was just wondering in your opinion, would it be a .01 or .02 or not make any difference with worn in cloth?
One could try to add other factors into the TDF equation to account for non-geometry factors (cloth type and condition, ball conditions, pocket facing and shim properties, rail and cushion conditions, table levelness, humidity, etc.), but it would be very difficult to quantify these effects and how they affect difficulty of play. Regardless, I decided to stick just to the most important factors that are easily and quickly measurable. For more info, see the TDF resource page and the TDF document.

Regards,
Dave

 (#722) logical sarcasm while you wait     Status: Online Posts: 866 vCash: 1700 iTrader: 2 / 100% Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Northern fringe of the Motor City suburbs 07-14-2019, 10:21 AM 9' GC 2 Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
(#723)
dr_dave
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07-14-2019, 02:02 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by logical 9' GC 2
Nice table and room.

Is that a GC-V? Let me know and I'll add it to the list.

Thanks,
Dave

 (#724) dr_dave Instructional Author     Status: Offline Posts: 9,744 vCash: 1700 iTrader: 4 / 100% Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Colorado 07-16-2019, 11:18 AM Here's the latest: Here's a mobile-friendly online tool (created by "Isaac") and an Excel spreadsheet for automatically calculating the TDF factor from three pocket measurements to determine the difficulty level of a table. Measurements and data reported by AZB users for table difficulty factor (TDF), based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF): username - table size:TSF, pocket mouth size:PSF, mouth-throat difference:PAF, shelf depth:PLF - TDF (table description) Vahmurka - 12':1.25, 7.2cm:1.55, 125deg:0.97, 25mm:0.98 - 1.84 (12ft Russian pyramid table) Side Pocket - 10':1.10, 4 1/4":1.10, 1 1/4":1.14, 2 1/4":1.07 - 1.48 (10' 1920-1925 Brunswick, modified 9/2016) CaptiveBred - 10':1.10, 4 1/8":1.15, >143.5deg:1.14, 1 1/2":0.99 - 1.43 (10' Brunswick Anniversary re-machined to Diamond specs) Bob Dixon - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 145deg:1.14, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.37 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified) gregcantrall - 10':1.10, 4":1.20, 5/8":1.00, 1 1/2":0.99 - 1.31 (10 foot Diamond in the Sun City West, AZ Rec Center) Ricky Sy - 9':1.00, 3 3/4":1.31, 1/4":0.97, 5/8":0.98 - 1.25 (money table at Hard Times in Bellflower, CA) acedonkeyace - 9":1.00, 4":1.20, 1/2":0.99, 2":1.03 - 1.22 (gamble table at sidePocket in Largo, Florida) ChrisinNC - 10':1.1, 4 1/4":1.05, 11/16":1.02, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.20 (shimmed 10' Gabriel Sentinel, Ernesto Dominguez modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC) Bonus Ball - 9':1.00, 3 7/8":1.25, 1/8":0.97, 3/4":0.98 - 1.19 (Bonus Ball table) Marc Vidal - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 7/16":1.05, 1":0.98 - 1.18 (shimmed Brunswick Tournament Edition) chevybob20 - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 7/8":1.05, 1":0.98 - 1.18 (Mark-Gregory-modified Centennial) Baxter - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 143deg:1.09, 1 1/8":0.98 - 1.18 (Donny-Wessels-modified AMF Grand Prix) Qaddiction - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 3/4":1.02, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.16 (Diamond) angluse - 8'+: 0.95, 3 13/16":1.25, 9/16":1.00, 7/8":0.98 - 1.16 (modified 1935 Brunswick Challenger) ChrisinNC - 10':1.1, 4 3/8":1.05, 11/16":1.02, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.15 (original 10' Gabriel Sentinel, Ernesto Dominguez modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC) rexus31 - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 3/8":0.98, 1":0.98 - 1.15 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King) FatBoy - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/4":0.97, 1":0.98 - 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified GC) TATE - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/4":0.97, 7/8":0.98 - 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified GC) Mikjary - 9'-1.00, 4":1.15, 9/16":1.00, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.13 (Brunswick Centurion) Cardigan Kid - 10'-1.10, 4.5":1.00, 0.88":1.04, 1.5":0.98 - 1.12 (Gold Crown from Steinway Billiards - Earl Strickland's former practice/match-up table) ChrisinNC - 9':1.0, 4 1/8":1.12, 5/8":1.01, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.12 (tightest Gabriel's Signature Pro, Ernesto Dominguez modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC - Table 7) Ralph Kramden - 9':1.0, 4 5/16":1.05, 1":1.07, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.12 (1962 Nine foot Gold Crown 1) pocket - 9':1.00 - 4 3/16":1.10, 7/16":0.99, 1 7/8":1.03 - 1.12 (unknown) Neil - 7':0.85, 4 1/8":1.15, 1 1/4":1.14, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.10 (modified Valley "bar box") MahnaMahna - 10':1.10, 5 1/2":0.85, 2":1.09, 2 1/2": 1.07 - 1.09 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table) Cardigan Kid - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 0.45":0.99, 1 5/16":0.99 - 1.08 (GC II) MSchaffer - 9':1.00, 4 7/16:1.00, 15/16":1.07, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.07 (GCII, RKC mod) cigardave - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 1":1.07, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.07 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond) peppersauce - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 3/8":0.98, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.06 (GC 3) Side Pocket - 10':1.10, 4 7/8":0.91, 1":1.07, 1 1/2":0.98 - 1.05 (10' 1920-1925 Brunswick) Pool Hustler - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 1/4":0.97, 15/16":0.98 - 1.05 (modified GC, measured by rexus31) JC, 9':1.00 - 4 7/16":1.00, 143deg:1.07, 1 3/8":0.98 - 1.05 ("Cobrasized" GC III) SloMoHolic - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 7/8":1.04, 1 3/8":0.98 - 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails) CoreyClark - 9':1.00, 5":0.91, 1":1.07, 2 1//8":1.05 - 1.02 (GC I) "standard" table - 9':1.00, 4 7/16":1.00, 9/16":1.00, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.00 (average-difficulty table) Goldball - 8':0.90, 12.2cm:0.91, 4cm:1.14, 5.4cm:1.07 - 1.00 (Heiron & Smith) dr_dave - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 1 1/8":1.10, 1 3/8":0.99 - 0.99 (old GC II at MatchUps, Fort Collins) MVPCues - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 1/2":0.98, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900) oldschool1478 - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 0.625":1.00, 1.5":0.98 - 0.98 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro) freds - 8'+: 0.95, 4.9":0.91, 1.1":1.1, 1.8" 1.03 - 0.98 (Gandy Big G, oversized 8) Cardigan Kid - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/16":0.95 - 0.97 (GC III Table 7 at Premium Billiards, Syracuse, Mark Gregory-modified w/ Artemis cushions) wigglybridge - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 5/8":1.00, 1 1/2": 0.98 - 0.98 (GC 1.5, rails rebuilt & cushions replaced by Jay Spielberg) BryanB - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets) Poolmanis - 9':1.00, 10.9cm:1.05, 1cm:0.97, 3.1cm:0.95 - 0.97 (modified SAM) Vahmurka - 9':1.0, 12.5cm:0.91, 20mm:1.04, 45mm:1.03 - 0.97 (Brunswick Metro) mamics - 9':1.00, 4 11/16":0.95, 143deg:1.07, 1 3/16":0.95 - 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions) dzcues - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 11/16":1.02, 1 15/16":1.03 - 0.96 (typical League-Cut Diamond) logical - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 7/8":1.04, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.95 (GC II) dr_dave - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 1":1.07, 1 1/5":0.98 - 0.95 (Olhausen purchased from Robert Byrne) dzcues - 9':1.00, 5":0.91, 15/16":1.07, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.95 (Gandy Big G) Sloppy Pockets - 8'+:0.95, 5":0.91, 1 1/8":1.10, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.95 (A.E. Schmidt) 44Runner - 8'+/-:0.925, 4 3/8":1.05, 3/4":1.02, 1":0.95 - 0.94 (8' Diamond Pro-Am - blue label) Corwyn_8 - 9':1.00, 4 3/4":0.95, 1 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.92 (Gandy Winchester) beetle - 9':1.00, 13.1cm:0.88, 2.2cm:1.03, 4.3cm:1.00 - 0.91 (Olhausen York) frigopie - 9':1.00, 11.5cm:0.95, 138.7deg:0.98, 3.5cm:0.98 - 0.91 (Eurotour Dynamic III) 12squared - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.91 (GC home table) iusedtoberich - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 1":1.05, 1 1/2":0.97 - 0.90 (GC) MSchaffer - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 3/4":1.01, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.89 (GC II) mfinkelstein3 - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 7/8":1.03, 1 1/2": 0.97 - 0.88 (GC III) StraightPoolIU - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.88 (GC I) Vahmurka - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 7/8":1.03, 1 1/2": 0.97 - 0.88 (GC) Dopc - 8':0.90, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.87 (8' Connelly Kayenta) SloMoHolic - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 3/4":1.02, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.87 (old 8' Brunswick Medalist league table) RobMan - 9':1.0, 5": 0.88, 3/4":1.01, 1.5":0.97 - 0.86 (GC) SloMoHolic - 8'+:0.95, 4 7/8":0.91, 7/8":1.04, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.85 (Brunswick Medalist at Stardust Club in Manchaca, TX) buckshotshoey - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.85 (American Heritage "Independence") nateobot - 7':0.85, 4 3/8":1.05, 1/2":0.95, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.85 (custom-made) angluse - 8'+: 0.95, 4 5/8":0.95, 7/16":0.98, 1 3/16":0.95 - 0.84 (1935 Brunswick Challenger) dr_dave - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 5/8":1.00, 1 3/8":0.98 - 0.84 (8' Connelly home table) BRussell - 8':0.90, 5":0.91, 13/16":1.04, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.83 (8' Olhausen) Lovepool - 9':1.00, 13cm:0.88, 1cm:0.96, 3.5cm:0.97 - 0.82 (home table) jtaylor996 - 7':0.85, 5 1/8":0.88, 146deg:1.09, 1.51":1.00 - 0.82 (7' Legacy home table) Mooneye - 7':0.85, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.79 (7' Brunswick "Ranchero") SloMoHolic - 6':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 5/8":0.95 - 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box") dzcues - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 1/2":0.95 - 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box") dr_dave - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 3/4":0.95 - 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins) Last edited by dr_dave; 07-20-2019 at 08:31 AM.
(#725)
logical
sarcasm while you wait

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07-20-2019, 02:36 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by dr_dave Nice table and room. Is that a GC-V? Let me know and I'll add it to the list. Thanks, Dave
A GC II, thanks.

(#726)
dr_dave
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07-20-2019, 08:32 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by logical A GC II, thanks.
Thanks for the info. FYI, I've updated you entry in the table.

Regards,
Dave

 (#727) coxcol15 AzB Silver Member     Status: Offline Posts: 113 vCash: 500 iTrader: 2 / 100% Blog Entries: 1 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Northumberland, PA 07-29-2019, 07:04 PM Valley barbox w/ ridgeback pro cuts Attached Images   Shooter: Jacoby HB2 Shafts: Jacoby BlaCk, Ultra Pro & Edge Hybrid Tip: Kamui Clear Black M Backup: Meucci w/ OB Classic+ Break: OB Limited Edition Jump: Jacoby Jumper Ext w/ Zento Case: JB Ultimate Rugged 3x6
(#728)
dr_dave
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07-30-2019, 10:10 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by coxcol15 Valley barbox w/ ridgeback pro cuts
That's about the toughest bar box I've ever seen.

Thank you for posting,
Dave

 (#729) dr_dave Instructional Author     Status: Offline Posts: 9,744 vCash: 1700 iTrader: 4 / 100% Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Colorado 07-30-2019, 10:24 AM Latest update: Here's a mobile-friendly online tool (created by "Isaac") and an Excel spreadsheet for automatically calculating the TDF factor from three pocket measurements to determine the difficulty level of a table. Measurements and data reported by AZB users for table difficulty factor (TDF), based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF): username - table size:TSF, pocket mouth size:PSF, mouth-throat difference:PAF, shelf depth:PLF - TDF (table description) Vahmurka - 12':1.25, 7.2cm:1.55, 125deg:0.97, 25mm:0.98 - 1.84 (12ft Russian pyramid table) Side Pocket - 10':1.10, 4 1/4":1.10, 1 1/4":1.14, 2 1/4":1.07 - 1.48 (10' 1920-1925 Brunswick, modified 9/2016) CaptiveBred - 10':1.10, 4 1/8":1.15, >143.5deg:1.14, 1 1/2":0.99 - 1.43 (10' Brunswick Anniversary re-machined to Diamond specs) Bob Dixon - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 145deg:1.14, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.37 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified) gregcantrall - 10':1.10, 4":1.20, 5/8":1.00, 1 1/2":0.99 - 1.31 (10 foot Diamond in the Sun City West, AZ Rec Center) Ricky Sy - 9':1.00, 3 3/4":1.31, 1/4":0.97, 5/8":0.98 - 1.25 (money table at Hard Times in Bellflower, CA) acedonkeyace - 9":1.00, 4":1.20, 1/2":0.99, 2":1.03 - 1.22 (gamble table at sidePocket in Largo, Florida) ChrisinNC - 10':1.1, 4 1/4":1.05, 11/16":1.02, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.20 (shimmed 10' Gabriel Sentinel, Ernesto Dominguez modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC) Bonus Ball - 9':1.00, 3 7/8":1.25, 1/8":0.97, 3/4":0.98 - 1.19 (Bonus Ball table) Marc Vidal - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 7/16":1.05, 1":0.98 - 1.18 (shimmed Brunswick Tournament Edition) chevybob20 - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 7/8":1.05, 1":0.98 - 1.18 (Mark-Gregory-modified Centennial) Baxter - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 143deg:1.09, 1 1/8":0.98 - 1.18 (Donny-Wessels-modified AMF Grand Prix) Qaddiction - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 3/4":1.02, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.16 (Diamond) angluse - 8'+: 0.95, 3 13/16":1.25, 9/16":1.00, 7/8":0.98 - 1.16 (modified 1935 Brunswick Challenger) ChrisinNC - 10':1.1, 4 3/8":1.05, 11/16":1.02, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.15 (original 10' Gabriel Sentinel, Ernesto Dominguez modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC) rexus31 - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 3/8":0.98, 1":0.98 - 1.15 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King) FatBoy - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/4":0.97, 1":0.98 - 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified GC) TATE - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/4":0.97, 7/8":0.98 - 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified GC) Mikjary - 9'-1.00, 4":1.15, 9/16":1.00, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.13 (Brunswick Centurion) Cardigan Kid - 10'-1.10, 4.5":1.00, 0.88":1.04, 1.5":0.98 - 1.12 (Gold Crown from Steinway Billiards - Earl Strickland's former practice/match-up table) ChrisinNC - 9':1.0, 4 1/8":1.12, 5/8":1.01, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.12 (tightest Gabriel's Signature Pro, Ernesto Dominguez modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC - Table 7) Ralph Kramden - 9':1.0, 4 5/16":1.05, 1":1.07, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.12 (1962 Nine foot Gold Crown 1) pocket - 9':1.00 - 4 3/16":1.10, 7/16":0.99, 1 7/8":1.03 - 1.12 (unknown) Neil - 7':0.85, 4 1/8":1.15, 1 1/4":1.14, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.10 (modified Valley "bar box") MahnaMahna - 10':1.10, 5 1/2":0.85, 2":1.09, 2 1/2": 1.07 - 1.09 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table) Cardigan Kid - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 0.45":0.99, 1 5/16":0.99 - 1.08 (GC II) MSchaffer - 9':1.00, 4 7/16:1.00, 15/16":1.07, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.07 (GCII, RKC mod) cigardave - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 1":1.07, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.07 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond) peppersauce - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 3/8":0.98, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.06 (GC 3) Side Pocket - 10':1.10, 4 7/8":0.91, 1":1.07, 1 1/2":0.98 - 1.05 (10' 1920-1925 Brunswick) Pool Hustler - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 1/4":0.97, 15/16":0.98 - 1.05 (modified GC, measured by rexus31) JC, 9':1.00 - 4 7/16":1.00, 143deg:1.07, 1 3/8":0.98 - 1.05 ("Cobrasized" GC III) SloMoHolic - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 7/8":1.04, 1 3/8":0.98 - 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails) CoreyClark - 9':1.00, 5":0.91, 1":1.07, 2 1//8":1.05 - 1.02 (GC I) "standard" table - 9':1.00, 4 7/16":1.00, 9/16":1.00, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.00 (average-difficulty table) coxcol15 - 7':0.85, 4.25":1.10, 1":1.09, 1.25":0.98 - 1.00 (Valley barbox w/ Ridgeback pro cuts) Goldball - 8':0.90, 12.2cm:0.91, 4cm:1.14, 5.4cm:1.07 - 1.00 (Heiron & Smith) dr_dave - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 1 1/8":1.10, 1 3/8":0.99 - 0.99 (old GC II at MatchUps, Fort Collins) MVPCues - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 1/2":0.98, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900) oldschool1478 - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 0.625":1.00, 1.5":0.98 - 0.98 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro) freds - 8'+: 0.95, 4.9":0.91, 1.1":1.1, 1.8" 1.03 - 0.98 (Gandy Big G, oversized 8) Cardigan Kid - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/16":0.95 - 0.97 (GC III Table 7 at Premium Billiards, Syracuse, Mark Gregory-modified w/ Artemis cushions) wigglybridge - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 5/8":1.00, 1 1/2": 0.98 - 0.98 (GC 1.5, rails rebuilt & cushions replaced by Jay Spielberg) BryanB - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets) Poolmanis - 9':1.00, 10.9cm:1.05, 1cm:0.97, 3.1cm:0.95 - 0.97 (modified SAM) Vahmurka - 9':1.0, 12.5cm:0.91, 20mm:1.04, 45mm:1.03 - 0.97 (Brunswick Metro) mamics - 9':1.00, 4 11/16":0.95, 143deg:1.07, 1 3/16":0.95 - 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions) dzcues - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 11/16":1.02, 1 15/16":1.03 - 0.96 (typical League-Cut Diamond) logical - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 7/8":1.04, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.95 (GC II) dr_dave - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 1":1.07, 1 1/5":0.98 - 0.95 (Olhausen purchased from Robert Byrne) dzcues - 9':1.00, 5":0.91, 15/16":1.07, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.95 (Gandy Big G) Sloppy Pockets - 8'+:0.95, 5":0.91, 1 1/8":1.10, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.95 (A.E. Schmidt) 44Runner - 8'+/-:0.925, 4 3/8":1.05, 3/4":1.02, 1":0.95 - 0.94 (8' Diamond Pro-Am - blue label) Corwyn_8 - 9':1.00, 4 3/4":0.95, 1 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.92 (Gandy Winchester) beetle - 9':1.00, 13.1cm:0.88, 2.2cm:1.03, 4.3cm:1.00 - 0.91 (Olhausen York) frigopie - 9':1.00, 11.5cm:0.95, 138.7deg:0.98, 3.5cm:0.98 - 0.91 (Eurotour Dynamic III) 12squared - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.91 (GC home table) iusedtoberich - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 1":1.05, 1 1/2":0.97 - 0.90 (GC) MSchaffer - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 3/4":1.01, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.89 (GC II) mfinkelstein3 - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 7/8":1.03, 1 1/2": 0.97 - 0.88 (GC III) StraightPoolIU - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.88 (GC I) Vahmurka - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 7/8":1.03, 1 1/2": 0.97 - 0.88 (GC) Dopc - 8':0.90, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.87 (8' Connelly Kayenta) SloMoHolic - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 3/4":1.02, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.87 (old 8' Brunswick Medalist league table) RobMan - 9':1.0, 5": 0.88, 3/4":1.01, 1.5":0.97 - 0.86 (GC) SloMoHolic - 8'+:0.95, 4 7/8":0.91, 7/8":1.04, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.85 (Brunswick Medalist at Stardust Club in Manchaca, TX) buckshotshoey - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.85 (American Heritage "Independence") nateobot - 7':0.85, 4 3/8":1.05, 1/2":0.95, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.85 (custom-made) angluse - 8'+: 0.95, 4 5/8":0.95, 7/16":0.98, 1 3/16":0.95 - 0.84 (1935 Brunswick Challenger) dr_dave - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 5/8":1.00, 1 3/8":0.98 - 0.84 (8' Connelly home table) BRussell - 8':0.90, 5":0.91, 13/16":1.04, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.83 (8' Olhausen) Lovepool - 9':1.00, 13cm:0.88, 1cm:0.96, 3.5cm:0.97 - 0.82 (home table) jtaylor996 - 7':0.85, 5 1/8":0.88, 146deg:1.09, 1.51":1.00 - 0.82 (7' Legacy home table) Mooneye - 7':0.85, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.79 (7' Brunswick "Ranchero") SloMoHolic - 6':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 5/8":0.95 - 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box") dzcues - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 1/2":0.95 - 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box") dr_dave - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 3/4":0.95 - 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)
(#730)
dr_dave
Instructional Author

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07-30-2019, 10:42 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by dr_dave That's about the toughest bar box I've ever seen.
Actually, there is one on the list even tougher:

Neil - 7':0.85, 4 1/8":1.15, 1 1/4":1.14, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.10 (modified Valley "bar box")

coxcol15 - 7':0.85, 4.25":1.10, 1":1.09, 1.25":0.98 - 1.00 (Valley barbox w/ Ridgeback pro cuts)

Unfortunately, Neil is no longer with us. He passed away not too long ago.

Regards,
Dave

(#731)
coxcol15
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07-30-2019, 02:14 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by dr_dave That's about the toughest bar box I've ever seen. Thank you for posting, Dave
Thanks! It's a fun one! Always wanted a tight barbox, thinking it would make life much easier on league night. I've come to find that it does, however, when shooting exclusively on this tight table, you're game changes. You'll shoot dangerous shots, knowing you're less likely to scratch. But on the flip side, there are plenty of normal shots that you can't even attempt because they simply won't go.

Shooter: Jacoby HB2
Shafts: Jacoby BlaCk, Ultra Pro & Edge Hybrid
Tip: Kamui Clear Black M
Backup: Meucci w/ OB Classic+
Break: OB Limited Edition
Jump: Jacoby Jumper Ext w/ Zento
Case: JB Ultimate Rugged 3x6

 (#732) ChrisinNC AzB Silver Member   Status: Offline Posts: 2,073 vCash: 500 iTrader: 0 / 0% Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Boone, NC 07-31-2019, 06:25 PM Dave, we currently have the 8th and 15th toughest tables on your list in our room, but I'm looking to get Ernesto to make some alterations on both of them when he hopefully comes here in another 3 months. I believe it's the pocket facing angles (143 degrees on both), more than the pocket mouth measurements (4-1/4" on the 10-footer and 4-1/8" on the 9-footer) that's making both the tables play way too tough for me to even want to use as practice tables any more. Keeping the pocket mouth measurements the same, I'm thinking about him changing the corners to +/- 139 degrees pocket facing angle in hopes they won't spit out so many slightly less than perfect shots. Do you think that amount of PAF alteration will make a noticeable difference in how the pockets accept object balls?
(#733)
dr_dave
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08-01-2019, 01:17 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ChrisinNC Dave, we currently have the 8th and 15th toughest tables on your list in our room, but I'm looking to get Ernesto to make some alterations on both of them when he hopefully comes here in another 3 months.
FYI, I checked both of your entries, and there were a couple of slight errors. This is what you originally reported:
ChrisinNC - 10':1.1, 4 1/4":1.05, 11/16":1.02, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.20 (shimmed 10' Gabriel Sentinel, Ernesto Dominguez modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC)
ChrisinNC - 9':1.0, 4 1/8":1.12, 5/8":1.01, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.12 (tightest Gabriel's Signature Pro, Ernesto Dominguez modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC - Table 7)

And here are the corrected versions:
ChrisinNC - 10':1.1, 4 1/4":1.1, 11/16":1.02, 1 5/16":0.99 - 1.22 (shimmed 10' Gabriel Sentinel, Ernesto Dominguez modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC)
ChrisinNC - 9':1.0, 4 1/8":1.15, 5/8":1.0, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.13 (tightest Gabriel's Signature Pro, Ernesto Dominguez modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC - Table 7)

Regards,
Dave

(#734)
dr_dave
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08-01-2019, 01:24 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ChrisinNC Dave, we currently have the 8th and 15th toughest tables on your list in our room, but I'm looking to get Ernesto to make some alterations on both of them when he hopefully comes here in another 3 months. I believe it's the pocket facing angles (143 degrees on both), more than the pocket mouth measurements (4-1/4" on the 10-footer and 4-1/8" on the 9-footer) that's making both the tables play way too tough for me to even want to use as practice tables any more.
Previously, you had reported throat-mouth differences of 11/16" and 5/8". Per the PAF table below, these do not correspond to a pocket facing angle of 143 degrees. Please re-check your measurements carefully, and let me know which is correct (11/16" and 5/8", or 143 degrees) so I can update your entries if necessary.

Regards,
Dave

(#735)
dr_dave
Instructional Author

Status: Offline
Posts: 9,744
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Colorado

08-01-2019, 01:27 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ChrisinNC Dave, we currently have the 8th and 15th toughest tables on your list in our room, but I'm looking to get Ernesto to make some alterations on both of them when he hopefully comes here in another 3 months. I believe it's the pocket facing angles (143 degrees on both), more than the pocket mouth measurements (4-1/4" on the 10-footer and 4-1/8" on the 9-footer) that's making both the tables play way too tough for me to even want to use as practice tables any more. Keeping the pocket mouth measurements the same, I'm thinking about him changing the corners to +/- 139 degrees pocket facing angle in hopes they won't spit out so many slightly less than perfect shots. Do you think that amount of PAF alteration will make a noticeable difference in how the pockets accept object balls?
Per the PAF table below, changing the pocket facing angle from 143 degrees to 139 degrees would change the PAF from 1.09 to 0.99. That would make the table play about 10% easier.

Regards,
Dave

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