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"bangers"
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"bangers" - 07-07-2019, 12:06 PM

Bangers sounds a bit derogatory. What I mean is people that are hitting a ball with no plan beyond that shot or only the vaguest of plans. I know people that play every few months that have been playing over forty years and are still bangers. They hit balls, they have fun, nothing wrong with that. They don't involve themselves deeply with pool and don't want to.

I know a lot of recreational players are very serious about improving their game so I can't call these people that just hit balls for fun recreational players and feel I am describing them well. Bangers are the people that haven't learned the world revolves around pool yet.

Hu




Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuddy View Post
To add to that, and discuss the problems of a long bridge for beginners more specifically, I think thereís two problems with inexperienced players having a long bridge. One is, as you mentioned, not having a straight enough cue action over a long distance (and I think this problems still exists with amateurs). The second, and I think this might be the biggest problem with inexperience players (bangers?) and contributes to the first problem, is that they have a long bridge without bringing the tip of the cue to the cueball. So they end up contacting the cueball way after their cue arm has passed the fulcrum point, and their body is too far from the cueball, etc, etc, blah, blah. I donít need to explain it.

For more experience players, I wonder if rather than focusing on bridge length, they should experiment with extending their follow through by bending the bridge arm a little more or looking at the distance from the fulcrum point of the cue arm to their chest, which also obviously affects follow through.

Just my rambling thoughts on the topic.
  
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07-07-2019, 12:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuddy View Post
Yeah, I didnít describe that very well. I just mean the point where the forearm of the cue arm is 90 degrees vertically to the floor/table (which is generally considered the ideal point at which to contact the cueball and is thus the point from which your follow through could be measured). Iím sure you know what I mean. I guess I was imagining the elbow as a fulcrum point, and meant to describe the point at which the forearm is aligned with that.

I didnít mean that affected follow through. I meant that point in relation to your bridge affected follow through, as does the distance from that point to your chest, or anything else impeding your cue arm from moving forward.
Oh, OK - thanks.

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07-07-2019, 12:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuddy View Post
Barry Stark has a really interesting video about timing: https://youtu.be/zH2PHaGl8Ik
The video is intriguing. Thanks for sharing it. It seems to me to prove both arguments correct. 1. There is no difference because the time of contact is so close that it has no practical effect on the shot. 2. There is a measurable difference. Then the argument becomes does that difference matter? Can a player really feel millionths of a second. Both arguments are defensible so the player gets to choose.

This same analysis would apply to hard vs. soft tips. Is there prolonged contact? does it matter?

It is nice to have things to argue about, makes it all more fun.
  
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07-07-2019, 01:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
First, pivot point be damned, most amateurs use too long of a bridge. I tested at a pool hall, bangers to shortstops, without telling people what I was testing. Everyone that looked at the object ball last didn't hit the cue ball exactly where they wanted to. Interestingly, those that knowingly looked at the cue ball last hit exactly where they meant to, even a banger.
Right, a longer bridge always magnifies any error from your butt-hand. Thatís a clear reason for a shorter bridge. Of course you need a long enough bridge so you can pull back far enough on hard-hit shots, but otherwise I donít know what the rationale is for a longer bridge.
  
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07-07-2019, 02:34 PM

Mosconi had an average bridge length (?), and so did most of the other good players I observed growing up, thus I imitated his style. So, imagine my surprise when I first saw Efren play straight pool in person, with his ultra-casual/extra-long bridge/stroke. He spent less time down over shots than Willie, but he banged them in center-pocket with authority, even long, multiple-ball combos. Go figure.

Last edited by DynoDan; 07-07-2019 at 04:24 PM.
  
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short bridge and big stroke
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short bridge and big stroke - 07-07-2019, 06:57 PM

Buddy Hall, others I have seen, sometimes drew the cue so far back with a short bridge that they got tip chalk on their hands, the tip went so far back into the bridge it didn't seem possible that the cue could be delivered perfectly. Of course with Buddy it was!

Two people made me revise my ideas of what was possible on a pool table. A never again seen game Willie played on TV against a tall, compared to Willie, player. I think Lassiter or Crane, possibly Grady. Anyway, this was a young Willie before his health issues. He was playing spot shape and playing across the approach area when it was most convenient. He had a shot where the leave was down a lane less than two balls wide between two other balls. He came off the rail and back into little more than a ball's width alley like it was a hanger!

I spent the next two or three years working on spot shape.

It was a few decades later when I first saw Efren. Again my understanding of what was possible on a cue table had to be revised! My game was so radically different that I didn't even try to copy the magician's style.

Pool is different today. Not really better or worse, just different. The big stroke is rarely needed and a finesse game can carry a person far.

Hu
  
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07-08-2019, 05:06 AM

Yes, many pros use a super-long bridge with a super-short backstroke on many shots. However, some of the pros shift the cue in their grip hand during this stroke--it's a technique I've taught some players but not everyone is suited for it.

The typical player would GREATLY increase their runouts by switching from a very long bridge to a shorter bridge, while also stroking the ferrule all the way back to their bridge on the backstroke, for automated speed control, for example, a three-inch bridge for a soft stroke, a five-inch bridge to send the cue ball half a table length after impact with the ob and rail, and a seven-inch bridge to send the cue ball to other side of the table.

The very long bridge plus an abbreviated backstroke is a recipe for disaster IMHO for most players.


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07-08-2019, 07:01 AM

I hear/read all these lengths. I was suggested using a 6 - 8" Bridge. I measure the bridge from the pivot point (where the cue rests on or in it's spot at the thumb). I measure there to the tip to a diamond away (12.5"), when done it looks like an 8" bridge but when I do a true 8" bridge it looks like a 3" bridge due to finger length.

I spent years practicing with my bridge hand on the rail and using the diamond (9' table) to work the muscle memory. I believe it to be a great method.
  
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07-08-2019, 07:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
Buddy Hall, others I have seen, sometimes drew the cue so far back with a short bridge that they got tip chalk on their hands, the tip went so far back into the bridge it didn't seem possible that the cue could be delivered perfectly. Of course with Buddy it was!

Two people made me revise my ideas of what was possible on a pool table. A never again seen game Willie played on TV against a tall, compared to Willie, player. I think Lassiter or Crane, possibly Grady. Anyway, this was a young Willie before his health issues. He was playing spot shape and playing across the approach area when it was most convenient. He had a shot where the leave was down a lane less than two balls wide between two other balls. He came off the rail and back into little more than a ball's width alley like it was a hanger!

I spent the next two or three years working on spot shape.

It was a few decades later when I first saw Efren. Again my understanding of what was possible on a cue table had to be revised! My game was so radically different that I didn't even try to copy the magician's style.

Pool is different today. Not really better or worse, just different. The big stroke is rarely needed and a finesse game can carry a person far.

Hu
So does the Rotation Master on YouTube...
  
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07-08-2019, 07:04 AM

Bridge at the natural pivot point for the shaft.
  
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07-08-2019, 07:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post
I measure the bridge from the pivot point (where the cue rests on or in it's spot at the thumb). I measure there to the tip to a diamond away (12.5")
What does the part in blue mean? Do you compare your bridge length to a diamond length to help estimate the bridge length in inches?

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07-15-2019, 09:10 AM

Played in a small tournament, and noticed a LOT of guys, especially
younger players, using an absurdly long bridge, with their back hand
on the end of the butt... one guy would try to bridge off the rail no
matter where the CB was, like a 2 foot bridge.
  
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07-15-2019, 10:13 AM

Bridges can and will change based upon the shot. Use whatever style or length that allows your cue
stroke to be completed in the straightest line possible delivering the cue tip directly on the cue ball
exactly where as you intended it to arrive. The key is making sure the cue maintains a level path so
it continues & finishes in a perpendicular straight line the entire time after contacting the cue ball. When
your bridge is too long, there's unintended movement (variation), albeit miniscule, in the cue shaft. The
tendency is to dip when shooting below the equator and rise when aiming above the equator. A lot of
missed shots result from using draw, high follow & extreme side spin. A straight stroke works the best.


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07-15-2019, 03:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bavafongoul View Post
Bridges can and will change based upon the shot. Use whatever style or length that allows your cue
stroke to be completed in the straightest line possible delivering the cue tip directly on the cue ball
exactly where as you intended it to arrive. The key is making sure the cue maintains a level path so
it continues & finishes in a perpendicular straight line the entire time after contacting the cue ball. When
your bridge is too long, there's unintended movement (variation), albeit miniscule, in the cue shaft. The
tendency is to dip when shooting below the equator and rise when aiming above the equator. A lot of
missed shots result from using draw, high follow & extreme side spin. A straight stroke works the best.
Excellent post. When discussing this (or any) topic, many can't differenciate between the forest/trees. The amount of disinformation is staggering at times. Fortunatly, some, like Bavafongoul, get it.
  
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07-15-2019, 03:18 PM

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Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
by switching from a very long bridge to a shorter bridge, while also stroking the ferrule all the way back to their bridge on the backstroke, for automated speed control, for example, a three-inch bridge for a soft stroke, a five-inch bridge to send the cue ball half a table length after impact with the ob and rail, and a seven-inch bridge to send the cue ball to other side of the table.
Perhaps you'd like to explain how the following variables would affect bridge lengths in regards to speed control.
1) Thickness of contact on OB
2) Type and amount of english applied to CB
3) Distance of OB from rail being contacted
4) Angle of CB into the rail
5) Speed of stroke acceleration

If you could also give a link to video of someone using a 3" bridge that would be appreciated.
  
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