How to Aim Faster?

1) Align a perfectly straight, long shot, with some distance between cue ball and object ball

2) Get down on the shot in your usual stance

3) Does the shot appear perfectly straight to you? Acknowledge that fact, now move your head laterally to the right or left and inch or two (move your head sideways with your neck and torso rather than swivel your head). Note that the straight shot appears to now be an angled cut shot, causing you to add human error to the shot from here.

The "vision center" or "alignment spot" is where the shot looks precisely as it appears in reality. A consistent head-eye position, particularly the position where the straight shot looks straight, is needed for each and every shot, cut or straight.

For the OP, my original questions remain. I can help them get down on the shot without undercutting to begin, but I cannot fix a stance (safely) without more information.

Patrick Johnson said:

Here's Dave's definition:


In other words, wherever you correctly see shot alignments.

What's not to like?

pj
chgo

Click to expand...

"Correctly see"? Let me answer your question with a question. What makes you think that just because everything looks like it is lined up straight while in shooting position that it actually is?

Dan White said:

What makes you think that just because everything looks like it is lined up straight while in shooting position that it actually is?

Click to expand...

I don't think that. That's the point of finding your "vision center" (and the definition of it) - it's the position where "what you see is what you get". If there's no such position possible for you, then I guess "vision center" isn't a solution for you.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

I don't think that. That's the point of finding your "vision center" (and the definition of it) - it's the position where "what you see is what you get". If there's no such position possible for you, then I guess "vision center" isn't a solution for you.

pj
chgo

Click to expand...

Not to be argumentative, but I do think you think that. You said Dave's vision center allows you to "correctly" see shot alignments. You are making the leap that just because it looks straight that it actually is. Here...

For reference: Dr. Dave -- "Your vision center is the head and eye alignment, relative to the cue, that allows you to see a center-ball, straight-in shot as straight, with the tip appearing to be at the center of the CB."

I think you and Dr. Dave are glossing over something important. His definition merely says that a straight in shot (that obviously is straight) LOOKS straight when the shooter is on his vision center (note Dave's definition says nothing about the shaft alignment relative to the two balls but I assume that is supposed to be part of the definition). He says "allows you to see a center-ball, straight-in shot as straight..." Think about the bold part. Just because you SEE the shot as straight, it DOES NOT FOLLOW that you actually have the cue lined up correctly on that line even if the tip is at center ball. So if the vision center puts you in the position where everything LOOKS lined up straight but really isn't (ie, the cue itself is off line) then what good is the concept?

If we take it to the next step and put a camera on the player, or have someone with sharp eyes look straight at the shooter and tell him when everything is truly lined up straight, then he will learn what it feels like to hold the cue on the true shot line. He may find that it looks and feels completely wrong and will need to start his body and head position over from scratch. I would argue that this new position could be called a "vision center" but it certainly will not feel like the correct position initially. Only over time will it sink in and start to feel natural and correct. Also, "vision center" would be wholly inadequate to characterize the new body and visual alignment required to finally have a correct alignment.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Dan White said:

Not to be argumentative, but I do think you think that. You said Dave's vision center allows you to "correctly" see shot alignments. You are making the leap that just because it looks straight that it actually is. Here...

For reference: Dr. Dave -- "Your vision center is the head and eye alignment, relative to the cue, that allows you to see a center-ball, straight-in shot as straight, with the tip appearing to be at the center of the CB."

I think you and Dr. Dave are glossing over something important. His definition merely says that a straight in shot (that obviously is straight) LOOKS straight when the shooter is on his vision center (note Dave's definition says nothing about the shaft alignment relative to the two balls but I assume that is supposed to be part of the definition). He says "allows you to see a center-ball, straight-in shot as straight..." Think about the bold part. Just because you SEE the shot as straight, it DOES NOT FOLLOW that you actually have the cue lined up correctly on that line even if the tip is at center ball. So if the vision center puts you in the position where everything LOOKS lined up straight but really isn't (ie, the cue itself is off line) then what good is the concept?

If we take it to the next step and put a camera on the player, or have someone with sharp eyes look straight at the shooter and tell him when everything is truly lined up straight, then he will learn what it feels like to hold the cue on the true shot line. He may find that it looks and feels completely wrong and will need to start his body and head position over from scratch. I would argue that this new position could be called a "vision center" but it certainly will not feel like the correct position initially. Only over time will it sink in and start to feel natural and correct. Also, "vision center" would be wholly inadequate to characterize the new body and visual alignment required to finally have a correct alignment.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Click to expand...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKoMZrg1MAg

Dan White said:

Not to be argumentative, but I do think you think that. You said Dave's vision center allows you to "correctly" see shot alignments. You are making the leap that just because it looks straight that it actually is. Here...

For reference: Dr. Dave -- "Your vision center is the head and eye alignment, relative to the cue, that allows you to see a center-ball, straight-in shot as straight, with the tip appearing to be at the center of the CB."

I think you and Dr. Dave are glossing over something important. His definition merely says that a straight in shot (that obviously is straight) LOOKS straight when the shooter is on his vision center (note Dave's definition says nothing about the shaft alignment relative to the two balls but I assume that is supposed to be part of the definition). He says "allows you to see a center-ball, straight-in shot as straight..." Think about the bold part. Just because you SEE the shot as straight, it DOES NOT FOLLOW that you actually have the cue lined up correctly on that line even if the tip is at center ball. So if the vision center puts you in the position where everything LOOKS lined up straight but really isn't (ie, the cue itself is off line) then what good is the concept?

If we take it to the next step and put a camera on the player, or have someone with sharp eyes look straight at the shooter and tell him when everything is truly lined up straight, then he will learn what it feels like to hold the cue on the true shot line. He may find that it looks and feels completely wrong and will need to start his body and head position over from scratch. I would argue that this new position could be called a "vision center" but it certainly will not feel like the correct position initially. Only over time will it sink in and start to feel natural and correct. Also, "vision center" would be wholly inadequate to characterize the new body and visual alignment required to finally have a correct alignment.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Click to expand...

Dave’s definition of “vision center” is the one that looks right when it is right. If a head position doesn’t look right OR isn’t right, then it isn’t your “vision center”.

By definition there’s no “wrong vision center”.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

Dave’s definition of “vision center” is the one that looks right when it is right. If a head position doesn’t look right OR isn’t right, then it isn’t your “vision center”.

By definition there’s no “wrong vision center”.

pj
chgo

Click to expand...

We're not communicating very well, possibly my bad. The point I'm trying to make is that there may very well not be a position that "looks right when it is right." Now, if you can stand behind the cue lined straight up with the balls then surely everybody can see straight from that perspective. Put a cue in your hand, put the majority of the cue out of your vision and lean over a shot with your body at an angle and now the position that gives you a correct lineup might look completely wrong. You have found the spot where the cue is lined up but it looks wrong. By your definition, I guess, this is your true vision center but that's not how most people use the term (see BilliardsAbout's post).

I'm on about 3 hrs sleep so that's about all the energy I have to type out, lol.

Dan White said:

The point I'm trying to make is that there may very well not be a position that "looks right when it is right."

Click to expand...

For that person maybe there isn’t a “vision center” by Dave’s definition. Fnding their “vision as centered as possible” might have to be the goal.

pj
chgo

I’m not so sure this center algnment stuff is of any particular importance.

As I think Dan said, what’s important is seeing things consistently. And basically, from there, you’re counting on your PSR to put all your body parts in positions that will produce a stroke that puts the balls in the pockets and makes the CB behave how you anticipate it to behave. The artificially induced stuff may not help you a wit.

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa said:

I’m not so sure this center algnment stuff is of any particular importance.

As I think Dan said, what’s important is seeing things consistently. And basically, from there, you’re counting on your PSR to put all your body parts in positions that will produce a stroke that puts the balls in the pockets and makes the CB behave how you anticipate it to behave. The artificially induced stuff may not help you a wit.

Lou Figueroa

Click to expand...

The vast majority of people I've ever worked with on a snooker table that have struggled to go from average to the next level have had issues limiting them that could be traced back to vision centre issues.

You even see professionals such as Stuart Bingham turn from a no body into a world class player all because he fixed his vision centre issue.

lfigueroa said:

...what’s important is seeing things consistently

Click to expand...

Agree - we can make wrong visuals work if we're consistently wrong. But we can make correct visuals work even better/faster/more consistently.

The artificially induced stuff may not help you a wit.

Click to expand...

What artificially induced stuff?

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

Agree - we can make wrong visuals work if we're consistently wrong. But we can make correct visuals work even better/faster/more consistently.


What artificially induced stuff?

pj
chgo

Click to expand...

I was talking about trying to find your vision center.

Lou Figueroa
might help
might not

lfigueroa said:

I’m not so sure this center algnment stuff is of any particular importance.

As I think Dan said, what’s important is seeing things consistently. And basically, from there, you’re counting on your PSR to put all your body parts in positions that will produce a stroke that puts the balls in the pockets and makes the CB behave how you anticipate it to behave. The artificially induced stuff may not help you a wit.

Lou Figueroa

Click to expand...

Pidge said:

The vast majority of people I've ever worked with on a snooker table that have struggled to go from average to the next level have had issues limiting them that could be traced back to vision centre issues.

You even see professionals such as Stuart Bingham turn from a no body into a world class player all because he fixed his vision centre issue.

Click to expand...

I'd have to agree. Having your vision in the proper place is very important.

FeelDaShot said:

When I get down on a cut shot, I almost always initially line up to undercut the shot. I'm not sure why, but I always do and it's annoying. I then have to adjust my aim slightly to make the ball. Sometimes I have to standup and realign and sometimes I can make a minor tweek while down.

Regardless, I would like to be able to get faster and more efficient at this process. I would like to be able to get down and aim the shot correctly the first time.

Does anyone know why I tend to always instinctively aim to undercut the shot?

Does anyone have any advice on how to practice aiming or setting up on the shot quicker?

The only thing I can think to do is take more time while standing to find the correct aiming point before getting down. I've tried this and it doesn't seem to fix my problem much.

The aiming method I use involves mostly just memorizing contact points/shot pictures. If its an uncommon shot I'll use the ghost ball to get a base aiming point and then adjust for deflection, throw, etc.

Click to expand...

Try this set your bridge hand down slightly left of where your normally do.

Island Drive said:

Try this set your bridge hand down slightly left of where your normally do.

Click to expand...

Why? Wouldn't some cuts be off left and some right? Why this method?

FeelDaShot said:

When I get down on a cut shot, I almost always initially line up to undercut the shot. I'm not sure why, but I always do and it's annoying. I then have to adjust my aim slightly to make the ball. Sometimes I have to standup and realign and sometimes I can make a minor tweek while down.

Regardless, I would like to be able to get faster and more efficient at this process. I would like to be able to get down and aim the shot correctly the first time.

Does anyone know why I tend to always instinctively aim to undercut the shot?

Does anyone have any advice on how to practice aiming or setting up on the shot quicker?

The only thing I can think to do is take more time while standing to find the correct aiming point before getting down. I've tried this and it doesn't seem to fix my problem much.

The aiming method I use involves mostly just memorizing contact points/shot pictures. If its an uncommon shot I'll use the ghost ball to get a base aiming point and then adjust for deflection, throw, etc.

Click to expand...

This thread is months old by this post, but I see that the discussion became about "vision center/centre". I wanted to address the "undercut" parts of the original post, as it appears to me that the problem may simply be the difference between the Point of Aim (POA) and Point of Contact (POC). If one aligns to the POC and shoots at it, then ironically, the POC becomes the POA, and the POC has actually shifted, resulting in a fuller cut! This is all due to the mechanics of making the curved surface of the cue ball strike the curved surface of the object ball. (I expect everyone here knows this, but I'm stating it for those that do not.)

Regarding actually speeding up the aiming process. That would likely require a discussion of exactly what one considers "aiming". It's a simple idea, but not necessarily the same thing. For example, the error described above is essentially trained into anyone that learns to aim AT the point on the object ball, opposite the pocket, but *without* learning to correct. This error is NOT introduced in the Ghost Ball system, as putting the cue ball into the GB location ignores the POA/POC offset, as the POA is the center of the GB (or the analog of it, on the cloth directly below the center of the GB.

If one is attempting to hit a contact point on an object ball, then learning to aim--meaning, learning to adjust for the offset--would be necessary. Otherwise, aiming is something of a natural idea--one just looks at something. What overshadows "aiming", is being able to stroke straight, and send the cue ball down a desired path/line.

In a way, "everyone has perfect aim", but executing a shot to follow the aim is the inconsistent part. For example, everyone can look at the bulls eye on a dartboard, but it takes practice to consistently throw to it.

The brain's ability to adapt is one of the most underestimated considerations in all of the talk about vision center and probably even aiming. Of course that's just my opinion but watch this sort video and consider just what your brain is capable of. I've posted this clip before without any comments so I figured I'd plug it one more time.

https://youtu.be/eA2d1tKNFoU

BasementDweller said:

The brain's ability to adapt is one of the most underestimated considerations in all of the talk about vision center and probably even aiming. Of course that's just my opinion but watch this sort video and consider just what your brain is capable of. I've posted this clip before without any comments so I figured I'd plug it one more time.

https://youtu.be/eA2d1tKNFoU

Click to expand...

That is awesome! Thanks for reposting it!

BasementDweller said:

The brain's ability to adapt is one of the most underestimated considerations in all of the talk about vision center and probably even aiming. Of course that's just my opinion but watch this sort video and consider just what your brain is capable of. I've posted this clip before without any comments so I figured I'd plug it one more time.

https://youtu.be/eA2d1tKNFoU

Click to expand...

Yes, and that can allow a personto get "into the zone" sometimes. But, actually being conscious of the variables, and continually keeping to correctly practiced norms will help someone to more consistently perform when not in said zone.

I have seen (videos of) those goggles before. I would bet that the baseline shooting percentages for a person are close, with or without them. That is, once adjusted to them, the shooting percentage is the same/similar. This might be part of the video, as I did not watch the whole thing this time.

Have you seen the backwards bike?

FeelDaShot said:

When I get down on a cut shot, I almost always initially line up to undercut the shot. I'm not sure why, but I always do and it's annoying. I then have to adjust my aim slightly to make the ball. Sometimes I have to standup and realign and sometimes I can make a minor tweek while down.

Regardless, I would like to be able to get faster and more efficient at this process. I would like to be able to get down and aim the shot correctly the first time.

Does anyone know why I tend to always instinctively aim to undercut the shot?

Does anyone have any advice on how to practice aiming or setting up on the shot quicker?

The only thing I can think to do is take more time while standing to find the correct aiming point before getting down. I've tried this and it doesn't seem to fix my problem much.

The aiming method I use involves mostly just memorizing contact points/shot pictures. If its an uncommon shot I'll use the ghost ball to get a base aiming point and then adjust for deflection, throw, etc.

Click to expand...

Here is a suggestion: When you are standing up, you have the correct shot Picture. Find a way to get Down on the ball where you are not twisting into the stance as much but going more straight Down. You'll see many good players doing it by holding the cue in front of their eyes and leaning straight Down/forward. Hard to describe but easier to do. With a little work, that can be done. That way, you may overcome your undercut tendency and keep the correct aiming Picture all the way to the delivery. There is more than one way to get into your stance.,,