Josey Or Arnot?

ridewiththewind

ridewiththewind

♥ Hippie Hustler ♥
Silver Member
HueblerHustler7 said:
So please explain to me, as far as stiff? I would think stiff would feel dead? Im planning on getting a basic sneaky with phenolic for a more balanced feeling cue. Now I personally enjoy the (feedback) of a cue (vibrations or resignation) given off after the contact to the cue ball, would this be considered stiff or soft?
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Stiff does not mean dead. Typically, the bigger the joint pin used, the stiffer the cue is gonna play...this includes wood/wood joints, which will be stiff but hit softer. A SS joint with a smaller pin will hit harder, but with a little more flex. However, the diameter of the shaft and the taper will come into play...no matter the joint type.

A normally crafted shaft might feel dead if it's just a bad piece of wood...it happens. I have personally found that for me, the laminated shafts feel dead...too much stuff inside to dampen the natural resonance.
 
HueblerHustler7

HueblerHustler7

AndrewActionG
Silver Member
ridewiththewind said:
Stiff does not mean dead. Typically, the bigger the joint pin used, the stiffer the cue is gonna play...this includes wood/wood joints, which will be stiff but hit softer. A SS joint with a smaller pin will hit harder, but with a little more flex. However, the diameter of the shaft and the taper will come into play...no matter the joint type.

A normally crafted shaft might feel dead if it's just a bad piece of wood...it happens. I have personally found that for me, the laminated shafts feel dead...too much stuff inside to dampen the natural resonance.
Click to expand...

Yes Im hearing his normal shafts are getting the most props out of everything he has to offer, IMO this is a great sign of a cue maker that takes pride in playability.
 
matcase

matcase

Blondie's #1 fan
Silver Member
My Josey is an excellent hitter. I don't have first hand experience with an
Arnot. I will say Josey cues play very very good.
 
S

SplicedPoints

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Stiff may not feel dead. Not quite sure how to explain it. It has a springy feel.
Don't need to pound the ball to get it to travel. Can juice the ball when you need to. Very predictable response from the cue ball.


HueblerHustler7 said:
So please explain to me, as far as stiff? I would think stiff would feel dead? Im planning on getting a basic sneaky with phenolic for a more balanced feeling cue. Now I personally enjoy the (feedback) of a cue (vibrations or resignation) given off after the contact to the cue ball, would this be considered stiff or soft?
Click to expand...
 
HueblerHustler7

HueblerHustler7

AndrewActionG
Silver Member
Springy, defiantly dose not sound dead to me. I like to hear the cue talk to me, I view it as a living thing and it vocally needs to give me feed back. For me a cue IMO, does this by both giving sound when contacting a ball and energy vibration feed back, This is what im looking for out of my Josey ;)
 
Cornerman

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
I guess I just don't know enough about cues. I read all of the descriptions and honestly, I have no idea what people mean.

I understand tapers, diameters, balance and weights. All measurable things. I don't understand springy, soft, or stiff.

Freddie <~~~ but still says the words soft and stiff, so I'm just as bad
 
pwd72s

pwd72s

recreational banger
Silver Member
Cornerman said:
I guess I just don't know enough about cues. I read all of the descriptions and honestly, I have no idea what people mean.

I understand tapers, diameters, balance and weights. All measurable things. I don't understand springy, soft, or stiff.

Freddie <~~~ but still says the words soft and stiff, so I'm just as bad
Click to expand...

To summarize...if a cue feels good?
Keep it! :grin:
 
HueblerHustler7

HueblerHustler7

AndrewActionG
Silver Member
Basically the way the cue feels in your hands, lol Some people aren't so sensitive and can pick up nearly any cue and shoot with it, some people just care about weight. Me on the other hand very sensitive and picky.:thumbup:
 
ridewiththewind

ridewiththewind

&#9829; Hippie Hustler &#9829;
Silver Member
Cornerman said:
I guess I just don't know enough about cues. I read all of the descriptions and honestly, I have no idea what people mean.

I understand tapers, diameters, balance and weights. All measurable things. I don't understand springy, soft, or stiff.

Freddie <~~~ but still says the words soft and stiff, so I'm just as bad
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Hehehehehe.....come on Fred....put a Meucci w/Red Dot shaft against a Tucker and you will have a prime example of both a whippy cue and a stiff cue, respectively.

As to hard hit and soft hit....too many variables involved....joint type, ferrule material, and tip selection can all make a difference.

Lisa
 
Poolplaya9

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
HueblerHustler7 said:
Josey or Arnot basic SP????

Whats the difference in hit type? Is Josey to stiff? When they say stiff it dosent mean dead feeling right? I like to be able to feel the vibration and hear the shot. Thank you for any answers.
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I have kind of a different opinion than most of the others in this thread, and it might help you to hear the other side as I think there is a chance you will be disappointed with a Josey based on the way you described your preferences.

First, let me say that I haven't played with an Arnot cue, so I can't comment on them. Second, my opinions and taste on "hit" are different than some people's and may even be in the minority. I too am huge on the cue allowing you to have the most possible "feel", and based on the way you have talked it sounds like we may have a very similar taste in "hit" and definition of "feel".

I hate the Josey hit. Dead, dead, dead, and then some more dead. The cue is very stiff and hard hitting, and IMO, it is hard for any really stiff hitting cue to have great feel, and Josey certainly doesn't have it, at least for the way I like my "feel". The way I see and define them, very stiff hit and good feel are almost polar opposites (whippy hit is not good either though).

Many people consider the very stiff hitting cues to have better feel, and in my opinion, whether they realize it or not, they feel that way simply because there is more/stronger/sharper hand shock and sound. Kind of like the way that hitting a piece of rebar or steel pipe into a brick wall would have yet even more hand shock as an example. You will feel definitely feel even stronger and sharper vibration and sound. Another example is hitting regular pool shots (like playing a full game) with a cue that has a phenolic tip on it. Again, the vibration/sound will be much stronger. The difference between those things and a stiff hitting cue, is the same as the difference between a medium and a stiff hitting cue. With a stiff cue you are getting more of that. But is that what really allows you to feel those small subtle differences?

More intense/sharper vibration and sound doesn't necessary equal better, depending on your preferences. With this more severe and stronger hand shock and louder more pronounced "tink" sound (defined by some as "feel"), you lose the ability to discern the nuances felt between different englishes when moving the cue ball around, largely because these nuances are felt as minor shaft flex which you largely lose with a very stiff cue. The primary "feel" you get with a very stiff shaft is the ability to feel the difference in how hard you hit the ball based on how severe the hand shock was and how loud the "tink" sound was. It's otherwise just really hard to tell the small, subtle, nuance differences between one zero flex strong, sharp tink vibration type hit verses another one.

Similarly, when a shaft is too whippy, you lose the ability to really feel the subtle differences too (of both english and force) because of the excessive whippiness of the shaft. It is hard to tell the small nuances between one massive shaft flex and another to be able to discern much. I would say if you really like to "feel" the differences in english as you move the ball around, go for a more medium hitting cue. If your definition of feel is more along the lines of "the sharper the vibration and the more hand shock and the louder the tink the more I like it" (which is very common) then go for a stiff cue. Another generality is that very stiff cues are better suited or most often preferred by shot maker types, and medium hitting cues are best suited and most often preferred by pinpoint position types or those that like to use more english to move the cue ball around.

Not interested in arguing with anyone on what feel is to them because it is all subjective based on personal preference on how you like your "feel" to feel. If you think your tastes are similar to mine, you probably won't like a Josey. If you tend to like that stiff, zero flex feel, with a brief sharp vibration and a loud tink then you probably will like Josey.

That said, I can also say this about Josey if you like that type of hit/feel. His craftsmanship is top notch, he has good business practices, and they hold their value fairly well.
 
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HueblerHustler7

HueblerHustler7

AndrewActionG
Silver Member
Poolplaya9 said:
I have kind of a different opinion than most of the others in this thread, and it might help you to hear the other side as I think there is a chance you will be disappointed with a Josey based on the way you described your preferences.

First, let me say that I haven't played with an Arnot cue, so I can't comment on them. Second, my opinions and taste on "hit" are different than some people's and may even be in the minority. I too am huge on the cue allowing you to have the most possible "feel", and based on the way you have talked it sounds like we may have a very similar taste in "hit" and definition of "feel".

I hate the Josey hit. Dead, dead, dead, and then some more dead. The cue is very stiff and hard hitting, and IMO, it is hard for any really stiff hitting cue to have great feel, and Josey certainly doesn't have it, at least for the way I like my "feel". The way I see and define them, very stiff hit and good feel are almost polar opposites (whippy hit is not good either though).

Many people consider the very stiff hitting cues to have better feel, and in my opinion, whether they realize it or not, they feel that way simply because there is more/stronger/sharper hand shock and sound. Kind of like the way that hitting a piece of rebar or steel pipe into a brick wall would have yet even more hand shock as an example. You will feel definitely feel even stronger and sharper vibration and sound. Another example is hitting regular pool shots (like playing a full game) with a cue that has a phenolic tip on it. Again, the vibration/sound will be much stronger. The difference between those things and a stiff hitting cue, is the same as the difference between a medium and a stiff hitting cue. With a stiff cue you are getting more of that. But is that what really allows you to feel those small subtle differences?

More intense/sharper vibration and sound doesn't necessary equal better, depending on your preferences. With this more severe and stronger hand shock and louder more pronounced "tink" sound (defined by some as "feel"), you lose the ability to discern the nuances felt between different englishes when moving the cue ball around, largely because these nuances are felt as minor shaft flex which you largely lose with a very stiff cue. The primary "feel" you get with a very stiff shaft is the ability to feel the difference in how hard you hit the ball based on how severe the hand shock was and how loud the "tink" sound was. It's otherwise just really hard to tell the small, subtle, nuance differences between one zero flex strong, sharp tink vibration type hit verses another one.

Similarly, when a shaft is too whippy, you lose the ability to really feel the subtle differences too (of both english and force) because of the excessive whippiness of the shaft. It is hard to tell the small nuances between one massive shaft flex and another to be able to discern much. I would say if you really like to "feel" the differences in english as you move the ball around, go for a more medium hitting cue. If your definition of feel is more along the lines of "the sharper the vibration and the more hand shock and the louder the tink the more I like it" (which is very common) then go for a stiff cue. Another generality is that very stiff cues are better suited or most often preferred by shot maker types, and medium hitting cues are best suited and most often preferred by pinpoint position types or those that like to use more english to move the cue ball around.

Not interested in arguing with anyone on what feel is to them because it is all subjective based on personal preference on how you like your "feel" to feel. If you think your tastes are similar to mine, you probably won't like a Josey. If you tend to like that stiff, zero flex feel, with a brief sharp vibration and a loud tink then you probably will like Josey.

That said, I can also say this about Josey if you like that type of hit/feel. His craftsmanship is top notch, he has good business practices, and they hold their value fairly well.
Click to expand...

Thanks lots for taking time to post ur your honest opinions, you have been a huge help and finally not so many "fan Boys" lol J/K

But in the last paragraph you explained that sharp vibration and feel, pretty much along the lines of what I like.

The only true way im going to find out is by choosing myself, If a Josey feels anything like a Jon Spitz cue then im pretty much sold. I would get a cue from Spitz but my budget is pretty low right now and would like to build a custom :D so when the times right that will happen.

As of right now im simply looking for a player that suits my needs and makes me happy, Unfortunately I thought my Huebler what that player, but ive grown away from steel joints the hits way to dead for me. Also I dont like the forward balance a steel joint gives. Hueblers are great cues I guess just not for me.
 
Cornerman

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
ridewiththewind said:
Hehehehehe.....come on Fred....put a Meucci w/Red Dot shaft against a Tucker and you will have a prime example of both a whippy cue and a stiff cue, respectively.
Click to expand...

Good example... for me. I have a cue that feels so stiff it's like they built it around a steel pole. Shoot with that compared to my Tucker Cues. Does that make my Tucker Cues whippy now?

Freddie <~~~ owner of whippy Tucker Cues
 
Poolplaya9

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
HueblerHustler7 said:
...in the last paragraph you explained that sharp vibration and feel, pretty much along the lines of what I like.

...ive grown away from steel joints the hits way to dead for me.
Click to expand...

In my opinion steel joints also give a hit that is along the same lines of the sharp vibration and feel that you say you like, yet you say you don't like steel joints.

I'm not a fan of the steel joints either, but to me a steel joint makes for a sharper higher frequency/wavelength vibration which deadens the hit just like a very stiff shaft does in my opinion (think treble or high hat frequency/wavelength for both a steel joint or stiff shaft). To me, in those high frequency/wavelength feeling type hits, it is much more difficult to feel the subtle differences in the way that you hit the ball. My definition of dead is not being able to discern those very small and subtle differences between shots that were only very subtlety different, regardless of the vibration frequency of the cue (although as stated before I feel those higher frequencies almost always make it harder to feel those subtle differences). But others define a dead hit as a lower frequency/wavelength vibration (think more bass), and in my opinion they are rating dead or not dead based solely on how intense/sharp and how high frequency the vibration of hit is (like hitting a steel rod into a brick wall would be), instead of how easily you can feel very small and subtle stroke differences and cue ball contact differences between shots.

But all this confusion just further illustrates one of the main points I tried to convey in my post. You absolutely can't trust someone else's opinion about hit/feel. What one person thinks makes for a superb hit/feel, could be exactly what you think makes for a horrible hit that is dead and with no feel the way you experience and sense things. And even having them explain what they mean won't really clear it up because different people use the exact same terminology to describe totally different and sometimes even exactly opposite things.

There is no substitute for hitting the actual cue you are considering buying before you purchase it (even different cues from the same maker can hit different--some makers are worse than others in this regard).

If you can't do that, then at least hit other cues from the same maker first as this will at least give you an indication how the specific cue you want to buy might hit, at least better than someone else's description/opinion anyway.

And finally, the least good option, but better than nothing, is to only give any weight to the opinion of someone that you know for a fact have liked the hit of many of the same exact cues that you have (this will likely be someone local to you if you have both hit many of the same exact cues [not just the same brand but the same exact cue] and is probably not someone on the internet).
 
angldemn

angldemn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm going to pipe back in here because Poolplaya9's Josey experience is not at all like mine. My cue is a 2003 and maybe that has something to do with it.

The hit was summed up as:
"stiff, zero flex feel, with a brief sharp vibration and a loud tink"
If that is what you like I really wouldn't recommend a Josey, at least not one like mine.

I do have cues that hit that way and I have cues that hit like that with more bass too; they sound more like "tunk" than "tink"

For the sake of empiricism here, I would say my cue sounds more like a resonant "poom" and has a nice lively springiness but not so much that it feels weak on the ball.

There's a possibility that my Josey experience is not the status quo for his cues, and I agree with Poolplaya9 that you should test some different cues out. Doing this will also give you a better sense of what your options are.
 
ridewiththewind

ridewiththewind

&#9829; Hippie Hustler &#9829;
Silver Member
angldemn said:
I'm going to pipe back in here because Poolplaya9's Josey experience is not at all like mine. My cue is a 2003 and maybe that has something to do with it.

The hit was summed up as:
"stiff, zero flex feel, with a brief sharp vibration and a loud tink"
If that is what you like I really wouldn't recommend a Josey, at least not one like mine.

I do have cues that hit that way and I have cues that hit like that with more bass too; they sound more like "tunk" than "tink"

For the sake of empiricism here, I would say my cue sounds more like a resonant "poom" and has a nice lively springiness but not so much that it feels weak on the ball.

There's a possibility that my Josey experience is not the status quo for his cues, and I agree with Poolplaya9 that you should test some different cues out. Doing this will also give you a better sense of what your options are.
Click to expand...

He never said he had a Josey....just says that they play "dead, dead, dead".

I get really annoyed when people who have no real practical experience chime in. I have owned a couple myself, and have hit with a few others....they are far from dead!!!! Playability is consistent throughout every one I have played with. Can you get a cue that is just 'off' in playability from the others....sure...you're dealing with wood, and it's gonna do what it wants. This is absolutely the first time I have ever heard anyone describe a Josey's hit as "dead, dead, dead".

I have recommended Joseys for quite a while now....because I believe that when you get a product that performs as well as these cues do, you tell people about it. Out of all the folks that have commissioned a Josey, damn near every single one has been happy with their choice...I get PM's all the time thanking me for the recommendation. Only one had an 'issue' and it had nothing to do with playability, but rather that the ebony was not completely jet black from butt sleeve to forearm....so it was about personal aesthetics. And guess what?....he was refunded his funds for the cue, because Keith and Sherri want their customers happy. I am sure they had no problem selling it....it was a gorgeous cue, even with the figure in the ebony.

And to be really clear here................I am not affiliated with the Josey shop in any way!!!! I don't get 'friend' discounts (and wouldn't ask for it), kickbacks, or anything else....oh, save for the yearly Christmas cards that Sherri sends out to ALL their customers...which are beautiful, BTW.

Are they for everyone? Probably not...preferences vary greatly between players....but I am not the only one who has posted here about how much they love how their Joseys play...many have more than one of Keith's cues. They do not seek out solicitors for their cues...they don't need to, the cues' playability speak for themselves.
 
W

wambamcam

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ridewiththewind said:
He never said he had a Josey....just says that they play "dead, dead, dead".

I get really annoyed when people who have no real practical experience chime in. I have owned a couple myself, and have hit with a few others....they are far from dead!!!! Playability is consistent throughout every one I have played with. Can you get a cue that is just 'off' in playability from the others....sure...you're dealing with wood, and it's gonna do what it wants. This is absolutely the first time I have ever heard anyone describe a Josey's hit as "dead, dead, dead".

I have recommended Joseys for quite a while now....because I believe that when you get a product that performs as well as these cues do, you tell people about it. Out of all the folks that have commissioned a Josey, damn near every single one has been happy with their choice...I get PM's all the time thanking me for the recommendation. Only one had an 'issue' and it had nothing to do with playability, but rather that the ebony was not completely jet black from butt sleeve to forearm....so it was about personal aesthetics. And guess what?....he was refunded his funds for the cue, because Keith and Sherri want their customers happy. I am sure they had no problem selling it....it was a gorgeous cue, even with the figure in the ebony.

And to be really clear here................I am not affiliated with the Josey shop in any way!!!! I don't get 'friend' discounts (and wouldn't ask for it), kickbacks, or anything else....oh, save for the yearly Christmas cards that Sherri sends out to ALL their customers...which are beautiful, BTW.

Are they for everyone? Probably not...preferences vary greatly between players....but I am not the only one who has posted here about how much they love how their Joseys play...many have more than one of Keith's cues. They do not seek out solicitors for their cues...they don't need to, the cues' playability speak for themselves.
Click to expand...

I have to chime back as well with my experiences. I first tried out a Josey when I bought a SP with a leather wrap. Loved the way it played, but I could not get use to the wrap. Now that I have a wrapless, "dead" would be the last word I use to describe my Josey. I have played extensively (over 2 years) with a SS joint Scruggs, and that may be the only cue that I would pick over my Josey today and that has a lot to do with the value of the Scruggs (which I stupidly sold years ago).

I know that if you tell someone that the cue you own makes you a better player, they would laugh and say that it's all in your mind. But since I've started using my Josey, my game has improved noticeably. It may just be the confidence I have when using it, but I know that I have the best equipment available.
 
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