Comments on Willie Moscont

Ive heard a lot of things about mosconi n to me it's like hearing a god was actually human. He's such a legend it's easy to forget he wasn't perfect. Again I've heard numerous negative things about him n I don't want to put them out there cuz who knows what's true or not. As far as the tournaments/world titles I read that almost never did he play a world tournaments if anything hed one guy like a boxing world title fight n when he won he remained the champ for that year. I also heard there were years during the 15 year stretch where no one actually played him so he just won that year because no one challenged him. So idk how accurate those are but if they are true his titles are a lot less meaningful in my eyes.

Low500 said:

Please post whether this is a big bunch of stuff or not.
I read this in Grady Matthews' book....."Bet High and Kiss Low"

For what it's worth, Grady Matthews, in his own book, has some sterling comments about Mosconi.
"Mosconi played a half table game, he never would gamble his own money. He claimed to be world champion 15 times"...Grady says..."hell, for 9 of those years, they didn't even have a tournament". "Mosconi, at his exhibitions demanded waxed balls and 5 inch pockets and he would curse and throw chalk."
There are other things too...read Grady's book.
Comments please....???
:thumbup:

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Yes, Mosconi played a half table game -- he was totally unafraid of shooting shots to the sides and far corner pockets. He'd get the CB just below the spot and run off 14 balls, barely moving the CB around.

As to gambling, if you read R.A Dryer's most excellent, "The Hustler & The Champ" about the rivalry between Mosconi and Fats, he documents numerous times Mosconi would clean out road players passing through town, to include Minnesota Fats. He didn't travel and hustle but he was unafraid to play for the cash. However, when he signed on with Brunswick, they wanted a squeaky clean image for the game and Mosconi tried to put his gambling days into the background.

I believe the terms for World Championships were different way back, and some years they would be decided by challenge matches stretched out over several weeks and cities. Consider that this was in the day when 14.1 was *the* game, front page NYTimes stuff, and there were wall-to-wall straight pool mechanics in every city like Philly and NYC. Mosconi dominated them all.

For his exhibitions, Mosconi brought his own set of balls. Due to his contract with Brunswick he was compelled to play on their tables and as long as it was a Brunswick he'd play on it. I don't believe he cared about the pocket size.

Did he sometimes throw a piece of chalk? Bad mouth an opponent? Be a dick? Sitting in the chair, chew his tongue until it bled? Yes. But he was a genius, a savant, and saw what the game could be and suffered anything but perfection poorly.

Lou Figueroa

Even though I'm a big fan of Willie Mosconi and his story, I've always felt that running balls on an 8 foot table is much easier than a 9-foot.
I've heard the argument that it's easier to run balls in straight pool on a nine foot, but I had an eight foot table and I think it was way easier.

Mosconi was an uptight ass and probably the greatest straight pool player ever.

Low500 said:

I think back in his era, those wide pockets were the key...even on a nine footer. On an 8 footer...even easier.
There is no way to ever know, of course, but I'm thinking that if he were around today as a young man, the same age as Jayson Shaw, SVB, or some of those other 'red hots' playing on those 4 1/4" pockets, they'd rob him.
He was an old man when he played Fat Boy on that TV thing...with big pockets.
:thumbup:

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Who knows? But one thing is FOR SURE - every pool player alive would like to have the " record " yet none yet has done it. That's says plenty to me.

Low500 said:

Please post whether this is a big bunch of stuff or not.
I read this in Grady Matthews' book....."Bet High and Kiss Low"

For what it's worth, Grady Matthews, in his own book, has some sterling comments about Mosconi.
"Mosconi played a half table game, he never would gamble his own money. He claimed to be world champion 15 times"...Grady says..."hell, for 9 of those years, they didn't even have a tournament". "Mosconi, at his exhibitions demanded waxed balls and 5 inch pockets and he would curse and throw chalk."
There are other things too...read Grady's book.
Comments please....???
:thumbup:

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I met Willie at the Ceasars Tahoe 9-Ball Tournament Richie Florence put on for a few years. I think it was 1983. I got to play him a game of 8-ball. Complete gracious gentleman in that setting. I'm fortunate to have been able to meet and interact with a real legend. Of course I watched him and Fats on TV in the 60's and from what I remember Willie didn't suffer the antics of Fats very well.

Many people have argued about Mosconi having easier table conditions. If that is the case, why hasn't anyone beaten his record of 526 in over 63 years? Everyone nowadays have cellphones with cameras, so its easy to post up a high run.

Other than pre-flag Masters, I don't think he had premium chalk, template racks, laminated tips, or lower deflection shafts.

The first 20 odd years were played on 10 footers!

ctyhntr said:

Many people have argued about Mosconi having easier table conditions. If that is the case, why hasn't anyone beaten his record of 526 in over 63 years? Everyone nowadays have cellphones with cameras, so its easy to post up a high run.

Other than pre-flag Masters, I don't think he had premium chalk, template racks, laminated tips, or lower deflection shafts.

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i think mosconi's record would have been doubled by now if the game and lifestyle hadn't gone the way of the dodo.

a guy like chang jun-lin would eat that record for breakfast if he played straight pool for a living and traveled around running balls in exhibitions.

he was an ass if being beaten during an exhibition. thats for sure. and he gambled until brunswick told him not to while in their employment.

he played on both tight pockets, 10 foot tables, 8 foot tables and in between and hardly ever got out of position or missed a ball.

back then some tables were loose but the tighter anniversaries and g.c. tables spit out bad shots all the time.

no place had air conditioning and tables were wet and slow. balls didnt break open much. you had to open a few at a time to run balls.

Comments on Willie Mosconi

The late George Fels wrote a number of articles on the man.

Back then,the World Championship tournament took MONTHS to complete,because they almost never had everyone in the same place at the same time,so they spread it out over various locations and dates.

The format was a 12 man,double round-robin tournament with matches going to 125 points. In one particular year,Willie ran a 125 and out on EVERYONE in either the first or 2nd match.

You could also openly challenge the Word Champion much like boxing,with the match spread out over several days and cities,in a 3000 point game. He was only challenged 4 times in those 15 years,undefeated.

Think about it,he was strong enough to walk into any place in America and run 100 balls playing 14.1 on what were probably horribly slow tables literally AT WILL.

Grady told me stories about his temperament later on,but added he could have played about as good as he wanted at his best. Tommy D.

It hasn't been beaten because players don't play the game everyday. They also don't play on 8 footers with 5inch pockets everyday. I think there are several players that would beat it today easily if they had those conditions and they played it everyday like he did. Players today are so much better than back then I don't care what anyone says. I would say a run of 400 balls on a tight diamond is like running 800 balls on an eight footer with 5 inch pockets. I'm a fan of the old players and watched them growing up but they just aren't as good as this generation of players. The don't break as good, know the rack as well, kick as well, run out, play patterns, etc. everything and there is more great players now than ever. I would bet 50 years from now there will be even more great players than there is now.

Justin Bergman said:

It hasn't been beaten because players don't play the game everyday. They also don't play on 8 footers with 5inch pockets everyday. I think there are several players that would beat it today easily if they had those conditions and they played it everyday like he did. Players today are so much better than back then I don't care what anyone says. I would say a run of 400 balls on a tight diamond is like running 800 balls on an eight footer with 5 inch pockets. I'm a fan of the old players and watched them growing up but they just aren't as good as this generation of players. The don't break as good, know the rack as well, kick as well, run out, play patterns, etc. everything and there is more great players now than ever. I would bet 50 years from now there will be even more great players than there is now.

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Ha Ha Ha!! Nobody has run 526 since Mosconi and Nobody has hit in 56 straight games since Dimaggio- Both guys were not the most personable at times for sure - knew them both. Find me a pro player that will sit in a room for 24 hours straight and bet me $10,000 that he/she will run 527 on an 8 foot with 5 inch pockets- post the $$ and the bet is on!

By the way- Mosconi's famous run did not begin with ball in hand to open the stack- so the true record should be broken playing against an opponent where the run begins during competition- albeit- exhibition competition- just like Mosconi. so the record run starts after a safe, or a missed shot by an exhibition opponent.

The Mosc and Greenleaf could run 125-and-out on a TEN foot table.

If Mosconi was anxious to get to a nearby Yankees game he would run 125-and-out in 45 minutes or less!

R.A. Dyer documents the possibilities of Mosconi running 600 or even 700 at home!

The 526 is the "official" record, only due to the witnesses and signatures. The players from that day in practice, had higher unoffical high runs, and on 9' tables, including Mosconi.

Another point to consider, straight pool was played by ALL the top players as the main game until well into the 1980's. On modern 9' GC's, with Simonis 760 cloth, even faster than today's more common 860, and modern centennial balls. In all of those decades after Mosconi's 526, no one beat the record, either officially or unofffically.

Rimfirejunkie said:

The first 20 odd years were played on 10 footers!

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It might also be noted that Mosconi took on Rex Williams, the reigning world snooker champion at the time, in the $20,000 Black Velvet Challenge, where they alternated games of snooker and 14.1 in a cross country event. At the end of the tour Moscioni had won all of the games of straight pool and seven of the eighteen snooker matches. So it wasn't like a large table and small pockets slowed him up much.

Lou Figueroa