Speed angles and spin

I am practicing a drill where the video shows a roughly 35-40 degree angle. Simple shots, one is OB 1" off the head rail between 1st and second diamond and Cue Ball 2-2 1/2 diamonds from the pocket and 3" from the long rail. This creates an angle that looks to be 35-40 degrees. You pocket the ball with running English and go two rails back out to the middle of the table. There are several similar shots, always the goal is to get back to the center of the table.

I notice I have to use a lot more spin than the instructor says he is using to get there on all of the shots. If I use an angle more like 22 1/2 degrees everything works like the video but with the greater angle I have to use a lot more English.

What I wonder is if it is because I am playing on an 88" table vs a 96". It is really hard to tell from a video what all the angles are. I am setting the shots up based on relationship to the diamonds but I am thinking my distances are much tighter so I either need more spin or less angle to make them work more naturally. Note on this diagram the angle looks smaller than on my table. This looks more like 25 - 30 degrees.

What say you?

Patrick Johnson said:

On my screen it's ~36 degrees.

pj <- and WAY too big
chgo

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It looks even worse on my table. I can make it around but need full right spin to get to the center. If I just use one tip I don't get to the center. I end up mid way between the side pocket and the center.

With less angle the follow pushes the cue ball ahead more into the corner and it comes out sharper so it makes it to the center but the follow doesn't do much with the larger angle.

Patrick Johnson said:

On my screen it's ~36 degrees.

pj <- and WAY too big
chgo

Click to expand...

In all the training videos I watch I see the instructor likes a lot more angle than I do. It is true a 45 degree angle makes it easy to move down table but it also makes the cut shot more difficult. Then if you need a little running side spin the cue ball is traveling fast and the object ball is harder to make. I like 1/2 of the 45 degree angle, about 22 1/2 degrees (give or take a few).

Thanks Bob. So I can trade a little right spin for a little draw and still get there. I will try it.

I think you are correct about the video and instructor but I was also wondering about the table size. I don't have as much distance for the cue ball to work it's magic. I can get to the center, just not like he says.

This seems to be true with all the instruction videos. Patterns don't work at all the same. Some of the patterns on Tor's videos simply won't work on my table as set up. I have to spread the balls out a little or there is no room to pass.

Also the camera angles on all videos throw you off. Dr. Dave mentions it on one of his. He hits a ball on a pure 90 degree and it looks like 60 on the video. He mentions it is the angle of the camera. Geeez.

Patrick Johnson said:

Sorry, I was talking about the picture. The angle looks like it takes a lot of English.

pj
chgo

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Sure. No sweat. It DOES take a lot. And yes it is about 36 degrees on the image. It is even worse on my smaller table because everything is closer together. No way I am spinning around to the center of the table with "a little bit of right". I have to hit it by the miscue limit. I am going to try the little bit of low with a little less right to see if that works, as Bob suggested. I don't know which is easier so will experiment.

I have trouble with a miscue on low left or right soft hit spin shots. A shot hit with some speed seems to be ok but when I switch to that soft hit for some reason my stroke must not be as pure. Hitting low and soft in general gives me trouble. I have to move up a little with a soft shot to avoid the scoop.

Bob Jewett said:

About getting an angle off the cushion with side spin....

Assuming you have reasonable fundamentals and hit the ball where you address it, there should be little problem in setting up a series of shots in which you find how much spin it takes to get a required angle off the cushion. That's true whether you hit an object ball first or not.

Here's a very simple kicking exercise:

Put the cue ball on the head spot and shoot straight down the table over the foot spot on each shot. Place an object ball on the cushion at a diamond. Kick to hit that ball. Repeat until you hit the ball on one cushion, hitting the center of the foot rail on each shot. Move the object ball to some other diamond and do it again. Do the diamonds in order if you want. Include the side and corner pockets. There are eight locations that are probably impossible for you to hit on one cushion.

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My question was less about how to make the shot then why it was so different than the instructor claimed. I can get the ball to the center of the table with the setup as the video shows. It is just the idea that it can be done "as advertised" with "a little right" versus the maximum right I have to use is what I question.

Instructors say "I never use more than a full tip of English" then on another video they are using extreme spin to achieve a goal. They say "I only hit hard on the break" and "you never have to hit the ball hard," then show a shot with a thin cut going back and forth across the table 4 times and say "I hit this almost as hard as a break shot".

The issue for me is trying to replicate the exact scenarios shown on the videos and understand all the variables. There is table size, video distortion, cloth differences, pocket rejection differences and so forth. It is hard to isolate issues and boil it down to something I am doing wrong when what I am being asked to do may not be possible under my circumstances. I KNOW table size is a factor. I discussed this with Tor and he confirmed the patterns he set up were on a 9' table and I would need to spread things out a little to have clearance on my smaller table.

My main mystery is the desired angle being so steep. I just don't get the trade off between a 40 degree cut hit softly to get down table and a 25 degree cut hit with medium speed to do the same thing. I know the pocket plays larger with the soft hit but a lot of things can go wrong with that approach. The cling is much greater, the table might roll off a little, and for me anyway, my stroke is best with a medium speed center ball shot than any other option.

CJ tries to hit with a relatively constant speed and will often go an extra rail to keep the speed consistent. Bert Kinister hits a super soft stroke and varies the speed a LOT from shot to shot. My friend plays the Kinister way and can slow roll with perfection. I am better off going across and back than trying to hold for position with more angle than I am comfortable with.

For me hitting really soft is not a goal. I like medium speed, so favor less angle. There is something else about it too. It is mental. Hitting soft time after time is not "satisfying" or something. It feels like playing "weak". I don't want to slam the balls in but like to feel like I am playing with a smooth rhythm.

Bob Jewett said:

The instructor gave bad info. If it is the video I think it is, the shot cannot be made to work as described on any normal equipment.

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Thank you for preserving my sanity.

I probably made it too complicated anyway. If you could only have one angle on every shot, what would your angle of choice be? I like the 22 1/2 degree or simply around 25 degrees. Is it true the pros like a lot more? Something like 35 degrees?

Bob Jewett said:

The standard for nine ball is around a half-ball hit so you can move the cue ball well in any direction off a cushion. I would say that at straight pool you try for nearly straight as much as possible because you want to make position as accurate as possible and limit cue ball movement.

On the other hand, I like to remember one year in the Mosconi Cup (9 ball) when Team Europe made a lot of outs without going to a cushion very often. That is not done with half-ball leaves. I like to try no-cushion runouts when I'm in stroke, which hasn't been recently.

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A half ball hit could be almost any angle depending on where the object ball was. You could be approaching from straight on and need a half ball hit to make the ball if it were near the middle of the table. I am looking at a ball a couple inches off the rail a diamond and a half from the pocket. So it seems like a half ball hit would be coming in at about 30 degrees. Is that about right?

Patrick Johnson said:

Maybe I misunderstand you, but...

"Half ball" means, from the viewpoint of the shooter, half the CB overlaps half the OB - that always makes a 30-degree cut no matter where you are on the table.

pj
chgo

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lol. Did you think that was news? :smile:

It is the angle to the object ball but not to a rail. A half ball hit could be anywhere and at any angle to the rail. I was looking for the angle to the rail on a particular shot, not the relationship to the object ball. A half ball hit into a side pocket could be 90 degrees to the end rail and has no relevance to my question.

My question is about balls along the end rails and a need to move up table. So in the exact setup I diagrammed a half ball hit would create a certain angle off the rail. If the object ball was further out or the cue ball was somewhere else a half ball hit would not create the same angle. Honestly the idea of the half ball hit is a different subject. I like the idea of opting for half ball hits but for different reasons and as I said, it is a different subject.

I can guess with the shot I set up, what the angle to the rail, a half ball hit would create but it isn't a constant. In my setup I was guessing opting for the angle where a half ball hit would pocket the ball would be roughly a 30 degree angle to the rail but wasn't totally sure.

Bob Jewett said:

I cannot parse what you wrote above.

A half-ball hit is a thirty-degree cut (ignoring throw). There is necessarily a fair amount of cue ball movement with such a shot regardless of how far the object ball is from a cushion. In very general terms the cue ball will move about as far as the object ball moves for a half-ball hit and a rolling cue ball.

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You are talking about the cut angle of the object ball, not the rebound angle off the rail which was my question. Not the same thing. A fixed cut angle on the object ball can send the cue ball to the rail at an infinite number of different angles. depending on where the balls are located on the table. Each shot would send the cue ball to some rail at some angle and they would all be half ball hits but there is no relationship to the rail angle except in a single set up. Move the object ball to the middle of the table and a half ball hit to pocket the object ball doesn't even go to the end rail. It can also go to the end rail at an angle that rebounds in the opposite direction. See the diagram. A half ball hit pockets this ball but has nothing to do with my question.

In the diagrammed shot I was guessing that made it about 30 degree angle to the rail. Actually a half ball hit will pocket that ball from a pretty wide variety of angles to the rail, some of which make the position to the middle much easier than others. Since the pocket is larger than the ball there is a lot of latitude in angle off the head rail where a half ball hit makes the ball but they all rebound differently.