for low500 teaching pool vs teaching how to win

bbb · Mar 15, 2018

beginners /intermediates need instruction with fundamentals more than anything else
jmho
intermediate/advanced need help in fundamentals (some )
but strategy mental toughness etc to learn how to win
i think someone who has been there done that has great insight on how to win
that being said
many champions have had coaches who were never champions

greyghost · Apr 18, 2018

bbb said:
beginners /intermediates need instruction with fundamentals more than anything else

jmho

intermediate/advanced need help in fundamentals (some )

but strategy mental toughness etc to learn how to win

i think someone who has been there done that has great insight on how to win

that being said

many champions have had coaches who were never champions

Arguably Two of the best coAches in their fields tho talented never won personal championships. Bill did in football and oddly enough his specialty was long distance coaching. He sprinted in track but was not of note, never so much as jogged till his later years.

Bill Bowerman

His highschiol state champ Junior & senior year are his only two personal championships.

. Over his career, he trained 31 Olympic athletes, 51 All-Americans, 12 American record-holders, 22 NCAA champions and 16 sub-4 minute milers

All in track and field.

Basketball
Red Auerbach
9× NBA champion (1957, 1959–1966)
NBA Coach of the Year (1965)
11× NBA All-Star Game head coach (1957–1967)
Top 10 Coaches in NBA History

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

BilliardsAbout · Apr 19, 2018

bbb said:
beginners /intermediates need instruction with fundamentals more than anything else
jmho
intermediate/advanced need help in fundamentals (some )
but strategy mental toughness etc to learn how to win
i think someone who has been there done that has great insight on how to win
that being said
many champions have had coaches who were never champions

I teach fundamentals but I also get paid to teach secrets.

FranCrimi · Apr 20, 2018

bbb said:
beginners /intermediates need instruction with fundamentals more than anything else
jmho
intermediate/advanced need help in fundamentals (some )
but strategy mental toughness etc to learn how to win
i think someone who has been there done that has great insight on how to win
that being said
many champions have had coaches who were never champions

There is this endless debate that just goes on and on about whether or not a player should seek out someone who's actually been there and done it as opposed to someone who hasn't.

It's a pretty complicated issue and there is no way to actually generalize an answer. Most people I see here have used sports as analogy. I'll offer a different analogy --- something I'm familiar with --- music school.

When you learn an instrument in a music school like I have, you start with one teacher and then as you advance in skill, you get passed on to another teacher. My first teacher was a good musician. My second teacher was a great musician who also won competitions and was also a composer. My first teacher did a good job in teaching me the basics. My second teacher did all the fine tuning and from his experience, also taught me how to compete.

If I had continued on and became really advanced, I wouldn't necessarily have needed the second teacher as much as I would have needed someone who knew and understood me as a musician and who could pick up on anything I might be falling into in a negative way. In pool --- Nick Varner and Hal Mix, his coach, come to mind. I never saw Hal Mix hit a pool ball, but he knew Nick's game better than anyone. I used to love sitting in the stands with Hal watching Nick play. He would tell me exactly what Nick was thinking just by the way he moved around the table and how long he stood in one place. He could also see when Nick was starting to get distracted and his rhythm started to go off. That's when Hal was really useful to Nick where he could give him that valuable feedback after the match.

So without getting too general, I think that where you really need someone who's been there in done it is right in the middle, right when your skills are strong enough for you to compete successfully and you're also ready for some fine tuning -- and I'm not talking about players who compete by getting heavy handicaps. If you're still learning fundamentals or missing a lot of shots, don't worry so much about competition. Just have fun with it. You have a long way to go.

measureman · Apr 20, 2018

i had a very smart and pool savoy person tell me that the reason some people dog it or get real nervous is that they are afraid to win.

i never understood that.

FranCrimi · Apr 20, 2018

measureman said:
i had a very smart and pool savoy person tell me that the reason some people dog it or get real nervous is that they are afraid to win.

i never understood that.

Not true. There are many reasons people get nervous and miss. It's true they are all fear based reasons but it's not always because they are afraid to win.

Patrick Johnson · Apr 20, 2018

measureman said:
i had a very smart and pool savoy person tell me that the reason some people dog it or get real nervous is that they are afraid to win.

i never understood that.

FranCrimi said:
Not true. There are many reasons people get nervous and miss. It's true they are all fear based reasons but it's not always because they are afraid to win.

I've sometimes thought I missed because I didn't deserve to win - like it would make it seem that I'm better than I really am, dishonest in a way.

pj
chgo

Straightpool_99 · Apr 20, 2018

Some lessons can only be learned, not taught.

Others can only be taught by those who have been there themselves.

Yet others can be learned by reading a book or watching a game.

Would I want a coach/instructor who bangs balls into the rails, and has done so all his life? Nah, don't think so. I mean, if the person had obvious brilliant insights, I'd give them a chance, but I don't think I've ever met someone like that. When you hear that prolific pool authors can't run even a single rack, it gets you thinking...

Every "theoretical" rule of the game I've ever seen gets broken by almost every pro at times. This game is not about those things. It's about playing to your strengths and letting your talent and subconscious do the work. This goes for fundamentals as well as theory of other kinds. There are guidelines and concepts that are valuable to learn, but should not be worshipped, but stored in the back of ones mind. Patterns for straight pool is an example. Once learned a pattern can become a part of your natural game, but you should not force your game to conform to patterns, especially ones that people who can't run 3 balls recommend. Likewise other "hobbyhorses" that are frequently touted as the only truths should be tested and discarded if they go against your natural tendencies.

If your game is garbage anyway, you may as well try, but don't ruin your game to conform to a theoretical standard that no pro or decent player follows.

I've discovered things about this game that nobody teaches as far as I know. Some don't teach them because they themselves can't play well enough to know them, others don't because they can't describe them well enough or do not want to. I find these truths to be ones most worth having. I can't teach you the "perfect" grip, because our hands are different. I can't teach the "perfect" stance, because our bodies are different and some things cannot be conveyed in words or even with pictures. I bet the pros know many more, that we mere mortals will probably never know and couldn't even use if we did know them.

bbb · Apr 21, 2018

thanks to all who have responded so far
:thumbup::thumbup:

bbb · Apr 21, 2018

fran
your analogy with music was appreciated
it seemed to echo my belief that the teacher you need in the beginning needs different skills than the one you need as you progress
fwiw i played the clarinet at an early age ,the string bass in my high school orchestra and studied classical guitar (pass/fail) in college

BC21 · Apr 21, 2018

FranCrimi said:
There is this endless debate that just goes on and on about whether or not a player should seek out someone who's actually been there and done it as opposed to someone who hasn't.

It's a pretty complicated issue and there is no way to actually generalize an answer. Most people I see here have used sports as analogy. I'll offer a different analogy --- something I'm familiar with --- music school.

When you learn an instrument in a music school like I have, you start with one teacher and then as you advance in skill, you get passed on to another teacher. My first teacher was a good musician. My second teacher was a great musician who also won competitions and was also a composer. My first teacher did a good job in teaching me the basics. My second teacher did all the fine tuning and from his experience, also taught me how to compete.

If I had continued on and became really advanced, I wouldn't necessarily have needed the second teacher as much as I would have needed someone who knew and understood me as a musician and who could pick up on anything I might be falling into in a negative way. In pool --- Nick Varner and Hal Mix, his coach, come to mind. I never saw Hal Mix hit a pool ball, but he knew Nick's game better than anyone. I used to love sitting in the stands with Hal watching Nick play. He would tell me exactly what Nick was thinking just by the way he moved around the table and how long he stood in one place. He could also see when Nick was starting to get distracted and his rhythm started to go off. That's when Hal was really useful to Nick where he could give him that valuable feedback after the match.

So without getting too general, I think that where you really need someone who's been there in done it is right in the middle, right when your skills are strong enough for you to compete successfully and you're also ready for some fine tuning -- and I'm not talking about players who compete by getting heavy handicaps. If you're still learning fundamentals or missing a lot of shots, don't worry so much about competition. Just have fun with it. You have a long way to go.

I like your music analogy and I think applies very well to playing pool. A good teacher can get you onto the proper path, as far as fundamentals go. You'll also acquire basic knowledge concerning the skill you are trying to learn. The teacher should also teach you how to practice in the most effective and efficienct manner. Then it's on your shoulders, meaning you have to work on what you're learning on your own time.

If you never practice what you're being taught, or practice ineffectively, you'll have poor progress and eventually lose interest and quit, telling yourself you can't do it or you'll never be as good as you want to be so why bother. But if you invest quality time practicing the little chunks of information and instruction provided by your teacher, you'll eventually develop your desired skill.

If competition or public performance is a goal, you may need a good coach, someone that's either successfully been there and done that, or someone that understands fully how the body and brain react under pressure/stress, and can therefore guide you along the way.

Mistakes/failures will happen, more so in the beginning, and they should be viewed as "guideposts for improvement", as Daniel Coyle says in his book, The Little Book of Talent . It's probably the best book I've seen for anyone interested in harnessing a skill or talent, or anyone interested in teaching.

FranCrimi · Apr 21, 2018

Patrick Johnson said:
I've sometimes thought I missed because I didn't deserve to win - like it would make it seem that I'm better than I really am, dishonest in a way.

pj
chgo

That's a very common reason. Many players feel like they don't deserve to win, maybe because they had a lot of good luck that particular match or maybe because they didn't practice as much as they felt they should have.

Just remember this: Whenever you find yourself looking at game ball, you did something right. You may not know exactly what it was that you did right, but you did something right and you have every right to pocket that game ball.

BC21 · Apr 22, 2018

FranCrimi said:
That's a very common reason. Many players feel like they don't deserve to win, maybe because they had a lot of good luck that particular match or maybe because they didn't practice as much as they felt they should have.

Just remember this: Whenever you find yourself looking at game ball, you did something right. You may not know exactly what it was that you did right, but you did something right and you have every right to pocket that game ball.

Great way to look at it.

Inside I smile everytime I hear an opponent say, "I gave that one to you", after they miss a shot or screw up a safety or whatever. I tell myself, No, you didn't give it to me, I took it after you screwed it up. I want to say, "You made a mistake, and not on purpose (it happens), so don't act like it was a GIFT. Accept the fact that you dropped the ball and I picked it up, and try not to drop it again."

BobN · Apr 24, 2018

BC21 said:
Inside I smile everytime I hear an opponent say, "I gave that one to you", after they miss a shot or screw up a safety or whatever. I tell myself, No, you didn't give it to me, I took it after you screwed it up. I want to say, "You made a mistake, and not on purpose (it happens), so don't act like it was a GIFT. Accept the fact that you dropped the ball and I picked it up, and try not to drop it again."

I was watching a set in my poolroom and one player dogged the 7 and left a 3 stop shot out for his opponent and said "Wow I just gave you that one". Without a moments hesitation, his opponent, a younger guy said "Oh, is that Klingon for 'I CHOKED', because I didn't know it was a gimme... I thought you missed and I punished you for it".

BC21 · Apr 24, 2018

BobN said:
I was watching a set in my poolroom and one player dogged the 7 and left a 3 stop shot out for his opponent and said "Wow I just gave you that one". Without a moments hesitation, his opponent, a younger guy said "Oh, is that Klingon for 'I CHOKED', because I didn't know it was a gimme... I thought you missed and I punished you for it".

Lol....I like that, saying, "It wasn't a gift, you screwed up and I punished you for it."

I'm going to use that one. Thanks!:thumbup:

for low500 teaching pool vs teaching how to win

bbb

AzB Gold Member

greyghost

Coast to Coast

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member

measureman

AzB Silver Member

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls

bbb

AzB Gold Member

bbb

AzB Gold Member

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com

BobN

AzB Silver Member

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com