We need a starting point

Seems to me that the only way to have a consistent scoring method is to start counting with a new rack and a break ball. Whether you throw them out and run 14 leaving a break ball or just rack'm and set up a break ball the counting starts w/a new rack of 14 and break ball.

JimS said:

Seems to me that the only way to have a consistent scoring method is to start counting with a new rack and a break ball. Whether you throw them out and run 14 leaving a break ball or just rack'm and set up a break ball the counting starts w/a new rack of 14 and break ball.

Click to expand...

What kind of break ball, exactly? Could you freeze it on one of the corner balls so that it's dead in the corner, then blast away?

acedotcom said:

What kind of break ball, exactly? Could you freeze it on one of the corner balls so that it's dead in the corner, then blast away?

Click to expand...

If I tried that, I'd probably end up with a mess like this:
http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AObb3Bcpy4...HWhN3IbFb4JMfO2KbdU3Lajd4MaBj2NHYc4OIne2PDdj@

I like the side pocket shot John Schmidt uses in his 245 video;
http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AFWM4BCYH3...HAUH3IAUm3JFrl4KDvW3LBrW3MEdV4NBJr3OBqr1PCVw@

(not an exact depiction) but I suppose you could use anything that worked well for you most of the time. I think that no matter what you used to get started, even if it was a carefully placed "Cosmo" spread, the meat of any significant run is in the stringing of racks, and the ability to make a LOT of consecutive shots without missing. Taking an 'easy" setup in the first frame only "guarantees" a run of 14, so I don't think that anyone would use that fact to cheapen your run of 135. It's kind of like playing the ghost in 9-ball, and taking ball in hand after the break.

Engaging yourself in a safety battle from a standard 14:1 opening break would be an interesting exercise, if potentially frustrating, since your "opponent" already knows what kind of shots you're likely to try, and has a pretty good idea what your percentages are, too.

Ken

I don't think it makes a difference,the purpose of practice is to prepare for match conditions. Runs in matches can start at anytime, with 14 hangers and a perfect break ball, or ball in hand and a perfect break ball.

I used to softly break a full pack to start my run but after DCC started with ball in hand I started to do that. The main reason I switched was because I needed more break shot practice and this provided this without having to run 15 balls to get to a break shot each time I started a run.

JMHO

Until they change the rules of 14.1 so that a run during a match does not officially begin until you get into a new rack, I am going to count my practice runs as soon as I begin pocketing.

What's next, don't count the easy ones?

- Steve

P.S. It's funny that many people in poolrooms exaggerate their high runs by a ton - AZ has a bunch of people lowballing themselves!

I think this only makes much a difference for those of us that can't regularly string racks together.

What I mean by this is that a do see a big difference in a run of 22 that started with 15 open balls and a run of 22 that started with just a setup break shot. I think both have value, but they are really two different beasts and we could argue which is harder.

Once runs get into a third rack and beyond, I don't think how you started really says much about the run you just put together. At that point you solved multiple racks the way you would in a real game.


michael <- C player at best, so take my input with a grain of salt

Steve Lipsky said:

What's next, don't count the easy ones?

Click to expand...

Steve,
Now THAT'S funny.

I sometimes wish there was a "degree of difficulty" bonus (you know, like in the Olympics where the Russian judge gives you extra points for the 9 footer off the rail); because my runs always seem substantially more difficult than those of the experts.

Yes!!

mthornto said:

I think this only makes much a difference for those of us that can't regularly string racks together.

What I mean by this is that a do see a big difference in a run of 22 that started with 15 open balls and a run of 22 that started with just a setup break shot. I think both have value, but they are really two different beasts and we could argue which is harder.

Once runs get into a third rack and beyond, I don't think how you started really says much about the run you just put together. At that point you solved multiple racks the way you would in a real game.


michael <- C player at best, so take my input with a grain of salt

Click to expand...

I am just starting to play 14.1 so I basically stink. I start my first rack by spreading 15 balls running them and leaving a break ball. I consider this the beginning of my run. But if we're count all the other balls then I have a high run of 23!! If not the I have 9. How embarrasing.

When I'm practicing I like to have the mindset of playing 1-no-count. My philosophy is that nothing sets up personal success like low expectations.

In competition, it sometimes happens that you are left with an easy two or three balls or an easy break shot, or you are left with 15 hangers. In any of these cases the run would count. So in any case it seems that wherever a run really begins is going to be somewhat arbitrary. But I say you at least have to do some straight pool-like work by breaking apart the rack. Spreading out 15 open balls in a really easy setup is really like giving yourself free balls for a run (assuming you count them), as you don't have to employ any straight pool strategy to get them down. You could set them up as easy as you want to. But starting with a break shot, you do have to work through them in a straight-pool-like fashion. Although any of these situations can come up in competition, you are starting out with a straight pool shot to begin the run.

So I say in PRACTICE, a proper run starts with a ball and break shot, however you get there. On the other hand, if you miss a ball in a run and then continue shooting to start another run (just so long as the miss was not intended to give you a wide open table for another run), it seems legitimate to count that as well. Really I think the only run that is not legitimate would be giving yourself a wide open table on purpose to give yourself free balls.

So really none of the options in the poll seem to fit this.

mthornto said:

What I mean by this is that a do see a big difference in a run of 22 that started with 15 open balls and a run of 22 that started with just a setup break shot. I think both have value, but they are really two different beasts and we could argue which is harder.

Click to expand...

I think starting with a setup break shot is clearly harder, because starting with 15 open balls you do not need to worry about getting another shot or avoiding scratching off the break, you can just play the table like an 8-ball pattern.

I have been practicing "my way" for over 30 years, I don't see me changing much of anything at this point. I practice the way that suits me, some may not agree with that method but it is how I do things. I don't think it matters how you get there, as long as you are confortable in how your are practicing - that is all that matters.

Takumi4G63 said:

I think starting with a setup break shot is clearly harder, because starting with 15 open balls you do not need to worry about getting another shot or avoiding scratching off the break, you can just play the table like an 8-ball pattern.

Click to expand...

Yes, but to play devil's advocate: with 15 open balls you do (hopefully) get the "free" balls but then you have to 1) leave a break ball and 2) leave the cue ball where you have a decent shot on the break ball. With a break shot setup you get to start with a "perfect" break shot.

As I said, debatable, but nothing to argue about. I think which is harder depends on the player.


michael <- luck to get the "free" 15

I'm suprised at the number of people that think you can only start a "counting run" from a break shot. So what? are you supposed to rerack every time you miss?

the way I see it, you're there to practice not count balls, every part of the rack is a different portion of the game, why would you limit yourself like that.

Start counting as soon as you make the 1st ball whether there's 14 balls on the table or 3.

That's the way I see it anyway.

Blackjack said:

I have been practicing "my way" for over 30 years, I don't see me changing much of anything at this point. I practice the way that suits me, some may not agree with that method but it is how I do things. I don't think it matters how you get there, as long as you are confortable in how your are practicing - that is all that matters.

Click to expand...

Um, where have you been? "All ways are the Queen's ways!"*




* Alice in wonderland in case you are wondering

I don't know who taught you guys how to play straight pool. I talked to Jimmy Mataya personally and he said that all runs begin with the 5-ball. Any balls pocketed prior shouldn't even count and any balls pocketed inbetween 5-balls should be counted as half a ball.

Jude Rosenstock said:

I don't know who taught you guys how to play straight pool. I talked to Jimmy Mataya personally and he said that all runs begin with the 5-ball. Any balls pocketed prior shouldn't even count and any balls pocketed inbetween 5-balls should be counted as half a ball.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure if you're joking here or being serious. If you're being serious, I'm totally lost.

Jimmy M. said:

I'm not sure if you're joking here or being serious. If you're being serious, I'm totally lost.

Click to expand...

Jimmy, you should have been there at the World 14.1 Championships this last July. A totally on-tilt Jimmy Mataya, during the round-robin stages, pretty much refused to play any other ball than the 5. Regardless of where it was (sometimes it was stuck in the middle of the pack).

He'd try banks on it with totally open shots on other balls. Then when he'd miss it, he'd just grab the cueball and try it again (no, not kidding). The crowd was besides themselves, as you can only be during a train wreck of that magnitude. It was the most disgraceful yet hilarious thing I've ever seen, bar none.

Of course, he did all this while wearing sunglasses.

- Steve