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Understanding the TAP handicap system
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bowiebill
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Understanding the TAP handicap system - 05-11-2019, 05:58 PM

Does anyone understand how this system works?

Iíve been using the tap app to look at the statistics of my teams players vs other teams players and I canít make sense of how skill levels are determined.

Iíve heard itís based on last 20 matches but not sure that is correct. Players on the team Iím on pretty consistently have a higher skill level, with worse make to miss ratio and lower winning percentage than players on other teams.

Using myself as an example, I have a make/miss ratio of 3.8 balls. Current win percentage is 55%. Iíve played 22 defenses in my last 20 matches. My skill level is 7. My record against other 7s is 1-2, record vs skill level 6 players is 4-5.

A player on another team has a make/miss ratio of 4.3 balls. Win percentage of 60%. Played 18 defenses in last 20 matches. His skill level is 6. He is 3-1 against 7s, and 5-3 against skill level 6 players.

We are both well established in the league. Both are in the hundreds of lifetime matches total.

Does anyone really understand how this system work?
  
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05-12-2019, 06:03 AM

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Originally Posted by bowiebill View Post
Does anyone understand how this system works?

Iíve been using the tap app to look at the statistics of my teams players vs other teams players and I canít make sense of how skill levels are determined.

Iíve heard itís based on last 20 matches but not sure that is correct. Players on the team Iím on pretty consistently have a higher skill level, with worse make to miss ratio and lower winning percentage than players on other teams.

Using myself as an example, I have a make/miss ratio of 3.8 balls. Current win percentage is 55%. Iíve played 22 defenses in my last 20 matches. My skill level is 7. My record against other 7s is 1-2, record vs skill level 6 players is 4-5.

A player on another team has a make/miss ratio of 4.3 balls. Win percentage of 60%. Played 18 defenses in last 20 matches. His skill level is 6. He is 3-1 against 7s, and 5-3 against skill level 6 players.

We are both well established in the league. Both are in the hundreds of lifetime matches total.

Does anyone really understand how this system work?
If your league is run like our local APA league, youíre at the mercy of the LO. If our LO thinks youíre a 7, then youíre a 7! Doesnít matter if you get drilled by 5s and 6s, youíre a 7! If you win less than 40% of youíre matches, then youíre a 7! Know this from firsthand experience.
  
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05-12-2019, 07:58 AM

.





Yes I understand it perfectly.

If you are looking for answers, your league operator will tell you "the system works."


I am sworn under oath of the National Tap League Secrecy Act to never explain how it works.

If I ever told my secrets I would be barred from all Tap events and forced to play APA.


I just can't let that happen.






.
  
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05-12-2019, 09:18 AM

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Originally Posted by Tom1234 View Post
If your league is run like our local APA league, youíre at the mercy of the LO. If our LO thinks youíre a 7, then youíre a 7! Doesnít matter if you get drilled by 5s and 6s, youíre a 7! If you win less than 40% of youíre matches, then youíre a 7! Know this from firsthand experience.
It took me 12 years of playing various leagues to come to the conclusion that I am not going to lose any sleep over what my handicap is or my opponents either.

They are what they are due to some playing their best all the time and some choose to sandbag.

What strikes me odd is that there are a lot of people complain about sandbagging in leagues and yet seem to idolize hustlers and there is no difference between the two in my opinion.
  
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05-13-2019, 05:44 AM

It took me 12 years of playing various leagues to come to the conclusion that I am not going to lose any sleep over what my handicap is or my opponents either.

LO opinions on what someone’s true handicap is, or is not, bother me because I have to spot players at least as good as I am (some even better) a game or two. These players usually beat me straight up in non league play. This is not fair to the rest of the team. Also, I know this from first hand experience - higher ranked opponents let lower handicap players win in a effort to raise their handicaps. A true 7 hcp player would love to play a TRUE 5 hcp with no spot!! Easy win.
  
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05-13-2019, 07:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom1234 View Post
It took me 12 years of playing various leagues to come to the conclusion that I am not going to lose any sleep over what my handicap is or my opponents either.

LO opinions on what someoneís true handicap is, or is not, bother me because I have to spot players at least as good as I am (some even better) a game or two. These players usually beat me straight up in non league play. This is not fair to the rest of the team. Also, I know this from first hand experience - higher ranked opponents let lower handicap players win in a effort to raise their handicaps. A true 7 hcp player would love to play a TRUE 5 hcp with no spot!! Easy win.
This is why Fargo works so well for leagues to help with sandagging, since it's tied in to everything you do, if anyone ever wants to play in tournaments with no handicap, it will show pretty quickly who is cheating in league. Joe is a 5 in league, but he just played four A players and beat them all to win $500 in the Joss tour, hm.... With the leagues and tournaments being separate, no way for Joe go be put in as his real skill level in league. If both tournament and league reports the scores to same system, his tournament results will change his league handicap.

But really trying to get any league to rank the players properly has never been anything that will be done. I have been in tons of events when the person running the league sees someone play well above their league rating, but nothing is ever done. Just like "C" players going for big money in calcuttas. Like anyone would buy a real C player for $100 when they are against As.


"I'll back you against anyone, as long as you did not know you were playng for money"

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05-13-2019, 09:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom1234 View Post
It took me 12 years of playing various leagues to come to the conclusion that I am not going to lose any sleep over what my handicap is or my opponents either.

LO opinions on what someoneís true handicap is, or is not, bother me because I have to spot players at least as good as I am (some even better) a game or two. These players usually beat me straight up in non league play. This is not fair to the rest of the team. Also, I know this from first hand experience - higher ranked opponents let lower handicap players win in a effort to raise their handicaps. A true 7 hcp player would love to play a TRUE 5 hcp with no spot!! Easy win.
I think an lo should have the discretion to raise a players handicap based on his opinion. That helps to raise players who he believes manipulate the system..... And also the ones who are never raised because of improper scorekeeping.

People are always complaining about some ones handicap but they never take measures to see the person is properly handicapped. I see it all the time where no one marks safes. If a 5 always wins matches again higher levels and averages around 15-18 innings he will never be raised if no one marks the 5 safes he played in those 15 innings.

So how is the lo to know this guys true level I'd the scoresheet is not marked property. He may see wth his own eyes and raise him based on what he sees.

My teams rotate scorekeepers due to playing double jeapordy and I have to constantly remind them....if it is not obvious a person was attempting to pocket a ball mark defense. I see too many scorekeepers not even watching a match ...especially 8 ball. They just mark an inning when their player comes back to the table. I have even had some ask me who won that rack that just finished .

Take this past weekends tri cups for example. One of my 5's played a 4 who won 3-2 and played 12 safes. I made sure all those safe were marked. Then I heard this 4's captain complaining last night that this 4 was raised to a 5 before the end of tri cups. He never wild have been raised without all those safes being marked.

As for 7's dumping...yea I have seen it and that is what handicap review sheets are for. If your lo does not supply them you can make remarks on the scoresheet of what you saw transpire during that particular match. Dont just write he was sandbagging...describe particular shots you saw .
  
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05-13-2019, 09:08 AM

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Originally Posted by hang-the-9 View Post
This is why Fargo works so well for leagues to help with sandagging, since it's tied in to everything you do, if anyone ever wants to play in tournaments with no handicap, it will show pretty quickly who is cheating in league. Joe is a 5 in league, but he just played four A players and beat them all to win $500 in the Joss tour, hm.... With the leagues and tournaments being separate, no way for Joe go be put in as his real skill level in league. If both tournament and league reports the scores to same system, his tournament results will change his league handicap.

But really trying to get any league to rank the players properly has never been anything that will be done. I have been in tons of events when the person running the league sees someone play well above their league rating, but nothing is ever done. Just like "C" players going for big money in calcuttas. Like anyone would buy a real C player for $100 when they are against As.
Most league players that sandbag will not pls in money tournaments. The last one here that did and cashed was raised from a 4 to a 6 when the lo heard od his finish in that tournament.

I have even had some tell mw they will not play masters for fear of being raised in the handicapped divisions based on their wins in masters.
  
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05-13-2019, 09:24 PM

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Originally Posted by lorider View Post
Most league players that sandbag will not pls in money tournaments. The last one here that did and cashed was raised from a 4 to a 6 when the lo heard od his finish in that tournament.

I have even had some tell mw they will not play masters for fear of being raised in the handicapped divisions based on their wins in masters.
Or threaten to sue Fargo if your name isnít removed from the system lol
  
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05-14-2019, 07:02 AM

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Originally Posted by lorider View Post
I think an lo should have the discretion to raise a players handicap based on his opinion. That helps to raise players who he believes manipulate the system..... And also the ones who are never raised because of improper scorekeeping.

People are always complaining about some ones handicap but they never take measures to see the person is properly handicapped. I see it all the time where no one marks safes. If a 5 always wins matches again higher levels and averages around 15-18 innings he will never be raised if no one marks the 5 safes he played in those 15 innings.

So how is the lo to know this guys true level I'd the scoresheet is not marked property. He may see wth his own eyes and raise him based on what he sees.

My teams rotate scorekeepers due to playing double jeapordy and I have to constantly remind them....if it is not obvious a person was attempting to pocket a ball mark defense. I see too many scorekeepers not even watching a match ...especially 8 ball. They just mark an inning when their player comes back to the table. I have even had some ask me who won that rack that just finished .

Take this past weekends tri cups for example. One of my 5's played a 4 who won 3-2 and played 12 safes. I made sure all those safe were marked. Then I heard this 4's captain complaining last night that this 4 was raised to a 5 before the end of tri cups. He never wild have been raised without all those safes being marked.

As for 7's dumping...yea I have seen it and that is what handicap review sheets are for. If your lo does not supply them you can make remarks on the scoresheet of what you saw transpire during that particular match. Dont just write he was sandbagging...describe particular shots you saw .
Maybe further explanation is needed. The LO never watches me play, he looked at my winning % from 15 years ago when I was a 4 hcp, and he completely ignores the fact that Iím the lowest ranked 7 in the league. With a winning % of less than 30%, how could anyone claim that Iím a 7 hcp? My lifetime safe % is 2/match. By the way, a 6 hcp that beat me 4 to 1 a few weeks ago just went to a 5 after losing to a 4 and 5 hcp. In that same time frame I was beaten by two 5s and a 6. Iím still a seven. Last night was my 18th match in two years. Any LO out there please tell me what you would have my hcp level. Thanks.
  
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05-14-2019, 07:07 AM

I am these days leaning towards the Fargorate being the standard. If I were to start a pool league, I think I would try to use them as a way of handicapping favoring the weaker player (if player A needs to win 9 games to player B's 4 it would be a race of 2 - 5). this way the better player is forced to take the match serious and not let up while giving the weaker player a real chance of winning. And the handicaps would float in real time as Fargorate changed them.

Just a quick thought on this subject...
  
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05-14-2019, 07:21 AM

Once you get to a 7 rating, especially for an extended period of time, it's mighty hard to be lowered. It probably takes some attention and action from a league operator.
  
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05-14-2019, 10:02 AM

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Originally Posted by Tom1234 View Post
Maybe further explanation is needed. The LO never watches me play, he looked at my winning % from 15 years ago when I was a 4 hcp, and he completely ignores the fact that Iím the lowest ranked 7 in the league. With a winning % of less than 30%, how could anyone claim that Iím a 7 hcp? My lifetime safe % is 2/match. By the way, a 6 hcp that beat me 4 to 1 a few weeks ago just went to a 5 after losing to a 4 and 5 hcp. In that same time frame I was beaten by two 5s and a 6. Iím still a seven. Last night was my 18th match in two years. Any LO out there please tell me what you would have my hcp level. Thanks.
18 th match in 2 years ? I think its too soon to worry about your handicap. Here is one for you. When I was first raised to a 5 in 9 ball I went and entire session without a single win. Lost 16 in a row and was still a 5. I finally dropped back to a 4 the start of the next session.

I am a 5 and here is how I am faring in 8 ball this session. Lost 3-2 to a 4. Lost 4-1 to a 5. Won 4-1 vs a 6. Betcha that 6 was thinking I should be raised . Lost 3-2 to a 4.

I am a 6 and have won all my 9 ball matches so far this session....3. Dont recall who I played or the score of the first match. Won 46-42 vs a 7 second match ...he probly thought I should be raised. won 46-22 vs a 4 in my 3 rd match.
  
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05-14-2019, 10:41 AM

If TAP is anything like APA then the amount of innings has a lot to do with it.

Say you're a 5 and play a 4 and beat the crap out of him but it takes you 10 innings per game, your SL just may go down due to the innings.

Say you're a 5 and beat a 7 with only 1 or 2 innings per game average, chances are your SL will go up.
  
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05-14-2019, 11:57 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lorider View Post
Most league players that sandbag will not pls in money tournaments. The last one here that did and cashed was raised from a 4 to a 6 when the lo heard od his finish in that tournament.

I have even had some tell mw they will not play masters for fear of being raised in the handicapped divisions based on their wins in masters.
Those are some sad sad humans.


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Charter member of the D-Bag Club, we stick to the letter of the rules not the spirit, and up yours!
  
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