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Spikeithard
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Just a couple snooker rules not too sure about still.. - 01-22-2017, 04:20 PM

Hey! Newer to snooker but LOVE it. I play on an 8' table though.

Pretty much have most the rules down but there are a few I need clarification on still

1. When both players at the end of the frame are both on colors. Do you have to call the pocket like 8 ball? and what happens if you pot the legal color in a different pocket? respot? (im pretty sure while reds are still on table its always respotted). And then is it ball in hand for incoming player or shoot from where the cue ball is?

and 2. What could be a great alternative to use at home instead of replacing all the balls where they were after a FAAM? On TV they have the luxury of looking at past and present pictures to see where the balls go back to. At home you dont.


Thanks!
  
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01-23-2017, 01:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spikeithard View Post
Hey! Newer to snooker but LOVE it. I play on an 8' table though.

Pretty much have most the rules down but there are a few I need clarification on still

1. When both players at the end of the frame are both on colors. Do you have to call the pocket like 8 ball? and what happens if you pot the legal color in a different pocket? respot? (im pretty sure while reds are still on table its always respotted). And then is it ball in hand for incoming player or shoot from where the cue ball is?

and 2. What could be a great alternative to use at home instead of replacing all the balls where they were after a FAAM? On TV they have the luxury of looking at past and present pictures to see where the balls go back to. At home you dont.


Thanks!
You don't nominate the pocket, just the colour. If you were to play the game in such a way where you have to nominate the pocket, a foul stroke would result in the colour being respotted and the incoming player receives penalty points equal to the value of the colour fouled upon, or a minimum of 4 penalty points if the errant ball is the green or yellow. Cue ball stays where it is. But in normal snooker, you do not nominate the pocket.

As for FAAM, all you can do is use your best judgement. I've seen players when in a snooker place a coin next to the cue ball as a marker in case they miss. In general, I don't like the FAAM rule for amateur play since too many games get decided by one good snooker.


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01-23-2017, 08:21 AM

great thanks.

So just nominate a color and if it goes in, it goes in. (like 9 ball)

Ya not sure about using the FAAM rule still here at home. The problem I see is if Player A shots and misses a red and hits the pink and then some more reds.. if I only move the cue ball back and leave the other disturbed balls in place.. Player A may now have a much easier ON since he moved a group around near by. Only thing I can think of is mark the cue ball like you mentioned and then if it looks like a shot could be hard and move some other balls , snap a quick photo on a cell phone to have reference after.
  
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01-23-2017, 10:57 AM

Yes you could do that. Though in tournaments we would more or less approximate the position of the reds as best we could.

Also keep in mind, although the pros have it called every time they miss a kick, it's not supposed to be called on every missed kick. The rule is designed to protect against intentional fouls, like you would see in straight pool or one pocket. So long as your opponent makes a fair attempt, there is no need to call the miss. In the pro game it has devolved into calling a miss on every failed kick.


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01-23-2017, 12:25 PM

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Originally Posted by Cameron Smith View Post
Yes you could do that. Though in tournaments we would more or less approximate the position of the reds as best we could.

Also keep in mind, although the pros have it called every time they miss a kick, it's not supposed to be called on every missed kick. The rule is designed to protect against intentional fouls, like you would see in straight pool or one pocket. So long as your opponent makes a fair attempt, there is no need to call the miss. In the pro game it has devolved into calling a miss on every failed kick.
sorry still new to it all... kick? you mean kick off the rail into an object ball?
  
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01-23-2017, 12:39 PM

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sorry still new to it all... kick? you mean kick off the rail into an object ball?
That is correct.


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01-24-2017, 12:52 AM

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Originally Posted by Spikeithard View Post
sorry still new to it all... kick? you mean kick off the rail into an object ball?
Ah, the problem of the uncommon language. For Americans "kick" means to play a cushion first to hit an object ball. For most snooker players a "kick" is a bad contact between the cue ball and an object ball. When speaking in mixed company, it is a four-letter word that is best avoided. "Bad contact" or "cushion-first" might better be substituted.


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01-26-2017, 02:40 PM

Only other thing I can think of right now is...

Lets say you snooker your opponent really really tough. Nearly impossible to hit an on ball from. I think I remember seeing something about only being able to try no more than 3 or 5 times and if they cant hit the ON ball then they are out of it or something??

Because if I snooker my friend, it would be pretty crappy to allow him to keep trying over and over and over again until I get to 300 points and counting. Is it at that point he concedes the game to me?

Thanks
  
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01-26-2017, 04:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spikeithard View Post
Only other thing I can think of right now is...

Lets say you snooker your opponent really really tough. Nearly impossible to hit an on ball from. I think I remember seeing something about only being able to try no more than 3 or 5 times and if they cant hit the ON ball then they are out of it or something??

Because if I snooker my friend, it would be pretty crappy to allow him to keep trying over and over and over again until I get to 300 points and counting. Is it at that point he concedes the game to me?

Thanks
It is noble to attempt to play the game properly using the same rules as the professional game. However, you must understand that the professional game is different than the amateur and therefore, specific rules may also be applied differently. That should definitely be the case for FAAM.

I agree exactly with Cameron. To quote him, "Also keep in mind, although the pros have it (FAAM) called every time they miss a kick, it's not supposed to be called on every missed kick. The rule is designed to protect against intentional fouls, like you would see in straight pool or one pocket. So long as your opponent makes a fair attempt, there is no need to call the miss. In the pro game it has devolved into calling a miss on every failed kick."

So when you watch professional snooker, the Ref will ALWAYS call FAAM with every miss because everyone KNOWS that these professionals are good enough that they can pretty easily make the contact if they really try. But often they don't really try, and instead skirt around it and maybe play a different shot that will leave their opponent safe but maybe it won't make contact. So the Ref will always call FAAM.

You and me (and all amateurs) are different. There are some snookers that we might spend all day trying to escape and never make contact. For amateurs, these should NOT be called FAAM. The actual Rule says, "The striker shall, to the best of his ability, endeavour to hit the ball on..." All this really means is that you are making a gentleman's agreement with your playing partner that you will absolutely try your best to make the contact and whether you ultimately leave a shot for him or not has no bearing at all on your decision of what escape shot to attempt. It just means that "tactical fouls" ARE NOT ALLOWED. And ultimately, you have got to trust that your opponent will have the integrity to abide by this rule and he must have the same trust in you. If not, if either or both of you are playing fouls on purpose making damn sure that you are going to leave the cue ball in a safe position, then you probably shouldn't be playing snooker against each other anyway unless you have a referee on the table to settle your differences because you will obviously have differences to be settled.

If this mindset is properly followed, the FAAM rule is completely irrelevant to social, amateur snooker. I have had playing partners in the past who have insisted on playing the FAAM rule always. Many, many times, I have had an utterly ridiculous snooker fluked against me. My personal policy was always, "Try three times. After that, the hell with it." meaning, I would try my best to contact 3 times and if the opponent kept putting it back, I would just miss by a mile from then on until I needed snookers to win, then of course I would just concede. The record was to give my opponent 46 points on FAAM. No fun for anybody in my opinion. So I have lost many frames that way and didn't care in the least (no money on it, just supposed to be for fun). After a short period of doing it this way, my opponents learned to just call the FAAM three times, then take the table. Much more fun that way.

P.S. - Here is an example of when it is proper to call FAAM....say you have laid the White tight against the Baulk cushion with all the Reds down near the Black spot like normal. Say your opponent tries to hit one specific Red very, very thin so he can also bring White back against the Baulk cushion the same way for you. Now, let's say that he tried to hit that Red so thin that he missed it completely and the White did come back in the area of Baulk so the position for you is kind of crappy but not nearly so bad as what he had tight against the cushion. This is a case where your opponent OBVIOUSLY did not try his best the hit the ball (as the Rules require) because he easily could have hit it full ball....he was just trying to make sure he brought the White back to a safe position and that is why he missed. THIS is a case where the FAAM should be correctly called for amateurs and situations like this are the only time that I personally will ever call FAAM on my opponent.

Last edited by acesinc1999; 01-26-2017 at 04:55 PM.
  
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01-26-2017, 08:03 PM

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Originally Posted by acesinc1999 View Post
It is noble to attempt to play the game properly using the same rules as the professional game. However, you must understand that the professional game is different than the amateur and therefore, specific rules may also be applied differently. That should definitely be the case for FAAM.

I agree exactly with Cameron. To quote him, "Also keep in mind, although the pros have it (FAAM) called every time they miss a kick, it's not supposed to be called on every missed kick. The rule is designed to protect against intentional fouls, like you would see in straight pool or one pocket. So long as your opponent makes a fair attempt, there is no need to call the miss. In the pro game it has devolved into calling a miss on every failed kick."

So when you watch professional snooker, the Ref will ALWAYS call FAAM with every miss because everyone KNOWS that these professionals are good enough that they can pretty easily make the contact if they really try. But often they don't really try, and instead skirt around it and maybe play a different shot that will leave their opponent safe but maybe it won't make contact. So the Ref will always call FAAM.

You and me (and all amateurs) are different. There are some snookers that we might spend all day trying to escape and never make contact. For amateurs, these should NOT be called FAAM. The actual Rule says, "The striker shall, to the best of his ability, endeavour to hit the ball on..." All this really means is that you are making a gentleman's agreement with your playing partner that you will absolutely try your best to make the contact and whether you ultimately leave a shot for him or not has no bearing at all on your decision of what escape shot to attempt. It just means that "tactical fouls" ARE NOT ALLOWED. And ultimately, you have got to trust that your opponent will have the integrity to abide by this rule and he must have the same trust in you. If not, if either or both of you are playing fouls on purpose making damn sure that you are going to leave the cue ball in a safe position, then you probably shouldn't be playing snooker against each other anyway unless you have a referee on the table to settle your differences because you will obviously have differences to be settled.

If this mindset is properly followed, the FAAM rule is completely irrelevant to social, amateur snooker. I have had playing partners in the past who have insisted on playing the FAAM rule always. Many, many times, I have had an utterly ridiculous snooker fluked against me. My personal policy was always, "Try three times. After that, the hell with it." meaning, I would try my best to contact 3 times and if the opponent kept putting it back, I would just miss by a mile from then on until I needed snookers to win, then of course I would just concede. The record was to give my opponent 46 points on FAAM. No fun for anybody in my opinion. So I have lost many frames that way and didn't care in the least (no money on it, just supposed to be for fun). After a short period of doing it this way, my opponents learned to just call the FAAM three times, then take the table. Much more fun that way.

P.S. - Here is an example of when it is proper to call FAAM....say you have laid the White tight against the Baulk cushion with all the Reds down near the Black spot like normal. Say your opponent tries to hit one specific Red very, very thin so he can also bring White back against the Baulk cushion the same way for you. Now, let's say that he tried to hit that Red so thin that he missed it completely and the White did come back in the area of Baulk so the position for you is kind of crappy but not nearly so bad as what he had tight against the cushion. This is a case where your opponent OBVIOUSLY did not try his best the hit the ball (as the Rules require) because he easily could have hit it full ball....he was just trying to make sure he brought the White back to a safe position and that is why he missed. THIS is a case where the FAAM should be correctly called for amateurs and situations like this are the only time that I personally will ever call FAAM on my opponent.
Awesome.. Well said.

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01-27-2017, 07:34 AM

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Awesome.. Well said.

Thanks!
It is so nice to see someone taking the time and making the effort to do the research necessary to learn The Game proper. Thank you! for your interest in this wonderful pastime. And I hope you can promote it among friends and playing partners.

In looking at some of your other posts, I assume you are currently an enthusiastic pool player, youngish, and have stumbled upon the concept of Snooker through this forum, through YouTube, or through other such channels. Enjoy your journey. Snooker is NOT just another version of pool. While there are obvious similarities, the skill set and the mindset required for the two games are completely different in my opinion. You will commonly see on this forum discussion/debate about which is better, which is harder, which is more boring or fun, which is this, that, or the other. All of that is silly nonsense. They are just different, like apples and oranges. No sense in arguing which is the "better" fruit.

For the record, I am a Snooker player. I don't know a lot about the Pool and I don't play it often. I learned the Snooker over three decades ago in the cradle of the premier event near Sheffield, England. In playing Snooker in the US, what I have discovered is that very few people in these parts actually know the game very well at all, even those who have been playing for years. I learned the game in its social environment, in the local pubs and clubs; modern "social" players only learn the game from watching the professionals on video and so these players aspire to be like their heroes. That is all well and good, but you should always keep your perspective. For instance, in a match, Neil Robertson may take 3 or 4 minutes to figure out a safety stroke that he will play against Ronnie O'Sullivan because he knows that if he doesn't, Ronnie may clear the table on him. On the flip side, if you and I are having a match and you take 3 or 4 minutes to figure out a safety stroke against me because I might score two or three balls against you, then to be honest, I don't think I am going to enjoy playing against you very often. Keep it in perspective. Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of opponents that I have opportunity to play against, consider their shots as if they are Neil and I am Ronnie; it really is not much fun when a frame lasts an hour and I am only on the table for 10 minutes of that, the remaining time watching my opponent scratch his head.

You have a few very good resources here on AZBilliards. Feel free to ask questions. I think Cameron Smith is my favorite. He knows the game probably better than anybody from a technical aspect and always seems to have a pearl of wisdom. It would do you good to do a search of his past snooker posts. PT109 is another one worth keeping an eye on. Like me, he has been around the game a long time and has a better perspective about actually playing the game well rather than just the tired old argument of "Who is the better cueist, Earl or Ronnie?" For really learning the game, I follow the Joe Davis method myself. He was the "grandfather" of the game, dominant from the 20's to the 50's and he wrote many old books that you can still find and the information is still very relevant. For video, I recommend anything you can find by Steve Davis and/or Ray Reardon. An actual modern coach who teaches fundamentals from the ground up and has a YouTube channel is Barry Stark so you can search for him as well.

Good luck in your quest! and if you ever pass through Chicago, look me up.
  
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01-30-2017, 04:30 PM

We have a snooker league in our seniors community and FAAM is called only when it is patently obvious that striker has made no attempt to hit the object ball. Since we don't have referees we don't want to get into judgement calls.
  
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