Pool League Situation - Make the Call - APA Match

B

BarTableMan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Player 'A' cuts the 8-ball into the corner pocket and makes it.
The cue ball hits the end rail and rolls down the table not toward a pocket.
As player 'A' lifts his hand...he accidently hits and rolls the 4-ball into the cue ball driving them both into the side rail.

Player 'A' wins, loses, anything else? Thoughts...?
 
Luxury

Luxury

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's a tragic loss of game foul for the shooter and if they need to understand why you can explain that if you make an exception for that then exactly how close to the pocket should it be to a scratch before you call it a loss of game? Now you would have to convolute the rules and have arguments that it wasn't within half a diamond or whatever.

APA keeps it simple for a reason.
 
skip100

skip100

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The rules say "Causing movement of the cue ball, even accidentally, is a foul." (Presumably this is distinct from making a legal stroke at the cue ball.)

Later it says "If an accidentally moved ball comes in contact with the cue ball, creating a foul, no object ball will be replaced."

In both cases the language is not exactly crystal clear but given that one of the ways to lose is listed as "You foul the cue ball and then pocket the 8-ball," it seems that this is a game-ending foul and loss.
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

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Staff member
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skip100 said:
... one of the ways to lose is listed as "You foul the cue ball and then pocket the 8-ball," it seems that this is a game-ending foul and loss.
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Well, yes, but.... The wording is lousy. The eight was pocketed AND THEN the cue ball was fouled. Technically the foul on the cue ball must occur before the eight is pocketed. But I know what they meant. :grin-square:
 
C

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BarTableMan said:
Player 'A' cuts the 8-ball into the corner pocket and makes it.
The cue ball hits the end rail and rolls down the table not toward a pocket.
As player 'A' lifts his hand...he accidently hits and rolls the 4-ball into the cue ball driving them both into the side rail.

Player 'A' wins, loses, anything else? Thoughts...?
Click to expand...
I agree with the others - an unfortunate foul and loss of game. It is still up to the opponent to confirm and enforce the foul, which he may or may not choose to do.
 
skip100

skip100

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bob Jewett said:
Well, yes, but.... The wording is lousy. The eight was pocketed AND THEN the cue ball was fouled. Technically the foul on the cue ball must occur before the eight is pocketed. But I know what they meant. :grin-square:
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I thought you might enjoy all three of those quoted rules. :thumbup:
 
Jimmorrison

Jimmorrison

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wow, not sure you should have posted this. The APA haters are gonna go postal. Where I shoot, there is no "Trump of Pool". The players have to decide, at the table. That was a cue ball foul. Shooter loses.
 
Nullus

Nullus

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Having run an APA league for the better part of 10 years back in the 90's, it still amazes me that they have so many rules, yet so many gray areas. One would think after all these years, that they would have figured out how to clean up all of them by now.

Bottom line is, you either play by the rules, or you don't. It's poorly worded, as mentioned above, but it's still a foul, while the shooter is at the table, no less. Should have been a loss of game. In ruling otherwise, a can of worms has been opened here, and the real problem is everyone associated with it, is now going to sit back and pick apart the rules every chance they get. That's not going to be healthy for the league. The league operator made a grave mistake in my opinion.
 
justadub

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
It is a loss of game. Its a shame, as it clearly was accidental, but those are the rules, as others have said.

Pretty much ask yourself, if this happened in Vegas, what would the result be? That's usually a safe way to determine it. Of course, there are always Bylaws and other variables, but that's a good rule of thumb
 
Shawn Armstrong

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
Nullus said:
Having run an APA league for the better part of 10 years back in the 90's, it still amazes me that they have so many rules, yet so many gray areas. One would think after all these years, that they would have figured out how to clean up all of them by now.

Bottom line is, you either play by the rules, or you don't. It's poorly worded, as mentioned above, but it's still a foul, while the shooter is at the table, no less. Should have been a loss of game. In ruling otherwise, a can of worms has been opened here, and the real problem is everyone associated with it, is now going to sit back and pick apart the rules every chance they get. That's not going to be healthy for the league. The league operator made a grave mistake in my opinion.
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According to you, he made a grave mistake. According to me, the OP isn't telling the full story. The APA is an amateur league. AMATEUR. People on the thread keep referring to pro rules. There are cueball fouls only, no object ball fouls. And they're trying to apply other rules to this. I would want to know where the cueball was going. Was it going to scratch, and the other ball blocked it? Or, did it just run into the 4, with no harm, because the cueball wasn't even near a pocket?

I error on the side of common sense. If the only reason you think they should lose comes down to them accidentally disturbing a ball because of an inadvertent mistake, leagues probably aren't your cup of tea. Again, my opinion only.
 
Cornerman

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
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This seems similar to the televised national APA finals one year where the woman who pocketed the 8-ball, in her excitement, tossed her cue stick onto the table. The cueball, while moving, hit it. The APA rules that the cueball had no chance of scratching, and didn't make it a loss.

IMO, they were wrong, but would hate to have called that a foul.
 
skip100

skip100

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Shawn Armstrong said:
According to you, he made a grave mistake. According to me, the OP isn't telling the full story. The APA is an amateur league. AMATEUR. People on the thread keep referring to pro rules. There are cueball fouls only, no object ball fouls. And they're trying to apply other rules to this. I would want to know where the cueball was going. Was it going to scratch, and the other ball blocked it? Or, did it just run into the 4, with no harm, because the cueball wasn't even near a pocket?

I error on the side of common sense. If the only reason you think they should lose comes down to them accidentally disturbing a ball because of an inadvertent mistake, leagues probably aren't your cup of tea. Again, my opinion only.
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Just for the record, the quotes above are directly from the APA's own rule book.

I hear you on disturbing object balls but even in APA world hanky-panky with the cue ball is a no-no.
 
Shawn Armstrong

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
skip100 said:
Just for the record, the quotes above are directly from the APA's own rule book.

I hear you on disturbing object balls but even in APA world hanky-panky with the cue ball is a no-no.
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But there was no cue ball foul.
 
C

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nullus said:
Having run an APA league for the better part of 10 years back in the 90's, it still amazes me that they have so many rules, yet so many gray areas. One would think after all these years, that they would have figured out how to clean up all of them by now.

Bottom line is, you either play by the rules, or you don't. It's poorly worded, as mentioned above, but it's still a foul, while the shooter is at the table, no less. Should have been a loss of game. In ruling otherwise, a can of worms has been opened here, and the real problem is everyone associated with it, is now going to sit back and pick apart the rules every chance they get. That's not going to be healthy for the league. The league operator made a grave mistake in my opinion.
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Agreed, there is no room for subjective decisions to be made in APA play - you must stick to the strict rules by the book or risk opening a can of worms. Same reason the shooter loses the game if they fail to mark or designate the intended pocket for a gimme shot on the 8 ball.
 
Shawn Armstrong

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
ChrisinNC said:
Agreed, there is no room for subjective decisions to be made in APA play - you must stick to the strict rules by the book or risk opening a can of worms. Same reason the shooter loses the game if they fail to mark or designate the intended pocket for a gimme shot on the 8 ball.
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And again, if you’re the type that would actually CALL a foul on someone for not marking an obvious pocket, I think you need to find a PRO league, or not play in this type of league, in general. I wish people would use the “common sense” rulebook, instead of trying to pick out 4 sub sections, and try to interpret the letter of the law. The reason the rulebook is so convoluted is because the vast majority of players don’t know how to use the common sense rulebook.

If the cue ball was going to scratch, and the 4 blocked it, then we have an issue to discuss. If the 4 ball was moved 2” by a cueball that came into contact with it, that wasn’t going to scratch, I give them the win. I want to beat my opponent on the table, not with Rule 9.11.2 of the league manual.
 
Biloxi Boy

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
Here is my quick and dirty analysis.

Rule 16 (e) speaks directly to this situation:

16. HOW TO WIN A GAME
8-BALL
* * *
e. Your opponent fouls the cue ball and pockets the 8-ball.

Rule 15 describes fouls:

These are the only fouls resulting in ball-in-hand. All other violations are
sportsmanship violations. The ball-in-hand fouls are:
* * *
g. Touching or causing the cue ball to move, outside of a ball-in-hand situation.
h. Altering the course of a moving cue ball, including a double-hit.
i. Anytime the cue ball makes contact with an accidentally moved ball.

Any questions?
 
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