Looking for history of cue joints.

RickLafayette

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I am curious how the different cue joint bolt types/sizes evolved and why. From 5/16x14 thru 3/8x14, 5/16x18, radial, 3/8x10, 3/8x10 modified, etc.
I notice a lot of custom cue builders use 3/8x10 and 3/8x10 modified. I have read that 3/8x10 is similar to the radial.
The more I read the more I am confused. I have had most joints over the years and still don't have a favorite though my last few favorite cues have been 3/8x10.

I've seen all the charts showing the various joints. I am looking for some facts or ideas on how they all evolved. If you feel that a certain joint is more superior I would like to hear your opinion / facts as to why.

There may be no bad answers or opinions here as everyone has their own. Please enlighten me.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am curious how the different cue joint bolt types/sizes evolved and why. From 5/16x14 thru 3/8x14, 5/16x18, radial, 3/8x10, 3/8x10 modified, etc.
I notice a lot of custom cue builders use 3/8x10 and 3/8x10 modified. I have read that 3/8x10 is similar to the radial.
The more I read the more I am confused. I have had most joints over the years and still don't have a favorite though my last few favorite cues have been 3/8x10.

I've seen all the charts showing the various joints. I am looking for some facts or ideas on how they all evolved. If you feel that a certain joint is more superior I would like to hear your opinion / facts as to why.

There may be no bad answers or opinions here as everyone has their own. Please enlighten me.
Both the Radial and 3/8x10 mod. have much more contact area in the threads than standard 3/8x10. Good info:https://www.dzcues.com/modified_pin.html https://uni-loc.com/joints/radial/
 

Poolhall60561

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In the late 70’s -early 80’s Viking Cues had a variety of joints to chose from. When I needed a 2nd shaft for my Viking I needed to send the butt back to Mr Hart so he could make it.

Ray Schuler developed a joint using a high tech materials. Ray’s joint allowed interchangeable shafts.
 

ideologist

I don't never exaggerate
Silver Member
1/4-16 and 5/16-14 were old furniture screws that were adapted to pool cues by Brunswick, especially after WWII

5/16-18 was a standard machine thread and when cue manufacturing moved to Asia, they moved to that screw since the tooling was already set up

Bill Stroud pioneered the 3/8-10 screw for pool cues in the late 1960s
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
1/4-16 and 5/16-14 were old furniture screws that were adapted to pool cues by Brunswick, especially after WWII

5/16-18 was a standard machine thread and when cue manufacturing moved to Asia, they moved to that screw since the tooling was already set up

Bill Stroud pioneered the 3/8-10 screw for pool cues in the late 1960s
Stroud helped design both Radial and Uni-loc as well.
 

Michael Webb

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am curious how the different cue joint bolt types/sizes evolved and why. From 5/16x14 thru 3/8x14, 5/16x18, radial, 3/8x10, 3/8x10 modified, etc.
I notice a lot of custom cue builders use 3/8x10 and 3/8x10 modified. I have read that 3/8x10 is similar to the radial.
The more I read the more I am confused. I have had most joints over the years and still don't have a favorite though my last few favorite cues have been 3/8x10.

I've seen all the charts showing the various joints. I am looking for some facts or ideas on how they all evolved. If you feel that a certain joint is more superior I would like to hear your opinion / facts as to why.

There may be no bad answers or opinions here as everyone has their own. Please enlighten me.

Most of the different joint screws fall under the right to Individualism by the Cue makers. The 3/8x10 modified became popular with some because the tap offered for the regular 3/8x10 was never really the right size. A few have the right tap or grind thier threads. Most, do not. So using the modified works well with the existing tap.
Just my opinion of course.
 

Cuebuddy

Mini cues
Silver Member
As far as I know the # 8-32 was first instituted by me:grin:. Certainly small, still out of proportion to my cues:wink:
 

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WildWing

Super Gun Mod
Silver Member
3/8 by 10 Acme pins are also on some cues. The threads are flatter than typical. To my knowledge, Tim Scruggs was the first to use them, though someone may correct me. The difference between the Acme pin and the rest is that Acme pins came in rods, so the cuemaker could cut the pin to the desired length for weight control.

All the best,
WW
 

Michael Webb

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
3/8 by 10 Acme pins are also on some cues. The threads are flatter than typical. To my knowledge, Tim Scruggs was the first to use them, though someone may correct me. The difference between the Acme pin and the rest is that Acme pins came in rods, so the cuemaker could cut the pin to the desired length for weight control.

All the best,
WW

Mike Gulyassy also uses the 3/8x10 acme. You are correct on Mr. Scruggs cues. But Mr. Scruggs did not have the taps (2 piece set). He used a joint screw to thread the shafts. Didn't work out to good over time.
 

WildWing

Super Gun Mod
Silver Member
Mike Gulyassy also uses the 3/8x10 acme. You are correct on Mr. Scruggs cues. But Mr. Scruggs did not have the taps (2 piece set). He used a joint screw to thread the shafts. Didn't work out to good over time.

Good info Michael. But a couple cues I have from Tim with Acme pins have worked out just fine, built approximately 20 years ago. They're still doing fine. Here's one of them, obviously the one on the left.

All the best,
WW
 

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Michael Webb

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Good info Michael. But a couple cues I have from Tim with Acme pins have worked out just fine, built approximately 20 years ago. They're still doing fine. Here's one of them, obviously the one on the left.

All the best,
WW

That's a keeper. Nice.
 

Ssonerai

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bill Stroud pioneered the 3/8-10 screw for pool cues in the late 1960s

As an extremely low volume mostly hobby builder, that has been my favorite joint because it is so simple. Back in the 80's i was building a house for a guy that was designed more or less around his pool room. He was fascinated with the 3/8-10 joint, and gave me a sneaky with it. His obsession was that if he could get a 3/8-10 tap, he'd go in business making custom cues. I went home and looked in my machinist catalogs, and there are a lot of oddball threads in any size, but at that time no 3/8-10.

I was making a few shafts then, to fit existing butts, but no butts myself.
When i started making the whole thing a few years ago, i remembered that and ground myself a tap to match G10 pins.

I know Mr Stroud posts on here at times.
Has he ever said how he came to use that profile?
Did he grind his own original taps?

I think this is absolutely fascinating.

smt
 

HQueen

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’m not sure what his TPI were but a lot of credit should go to Harvey Martin. He made his own screws and they were 3/8”.
 

Poolhall60561

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
From Current Schuler web site;

The Schuler Joint - "The first challenge I faced as a cuemaker was to develop a better joint. The ideal joint is 'nature's joint,' that is, no joint at all, as in a one-piece cue. My goal in designing the Schuler joint was to duplicate, insofar as possible, the hit, the hit transmission, and the weight distribution of a one-piece cue. Hit transmission is defined as the vibrations that move up the cue to the player's hand to give him feedback on each shot.

"Several joint designs were in use when I started making cues: piloted, flat-faced, and the all-wood joint that had long been popular in Europe and the Orient. The piloted, stainless steel joints were strong, but very heavy. That extra weight in the form of a large hunk of metal in the middle of the cue acts as an inertial stop to the dynamics of the hit and its transmission. It also poses serious problems for properly balancing the cue [See Weight Distribution and Balance below].

"The few flat-faced joints that were both relatively light and designed with wood-to-wood contact offered good hit transmission, as did the all-wood joint. They were, however, not strong or durable enough, at least to my mind. The all-wood design is also the most climate-sensitive joint because the threads will always expand and contract in response to changes in relative humidity and temperature.

"What I wanted was a combination of a piloted and a flat-faced joint, offering the advantages of both and the disadvantages of neither. And after a good deal of research and development, that is what I ended up with. The Schuler joint is piloted, but it has even more wood-to-wood contact surface than the best flat-faced joints. The piloted design assures structural integrity and durability, while the wood-to-wood contact optimizes hit transmission.

"The Schuler joint is also very lightweight, thanks in part to using aircraft aluminum for the shaft insert and drilling out the brass joint pin. A lightweight joint enhances hit transmission while contributing importantly to the balance of the cue.

"The Schuler joint was the first interference fit joint in a cue. Interference fit means that the pilot on the shaft fits into the corresponding cavity in the butt tightly enough to create friction, or interference, between the two components. This ensures that the cue will never loosen during play. An interference fit joint is harder to build because of the tight tolerances required, but the benefits in terms of strength, performance, and durability are well worth the extra work.

"Aesthetically, the Schuler joint affords the ability to use any decorative material at the joint - ivory, buckhorn, exotic wood, brass, stainless steel, plastic, et cetera - without affecting the performance or balance of the cue. The 'work' the joint does takes place internally, so the material used for the outside sleeve of the joint coupling is essentially a cosmetic consideration.

"When a stainless steel or brass joint 'look' is desired, my design allows the outside metal sleeve to be quite thin. Thus we are able to provide the look that many players prefer, without the penalties of extra weight and poor hit transmission that are typical of metal-jointed cues."

Weight Distribution and Balance - "The entire Schuler joint adds at most only 13 grams to the weight of the cue. And because I've never used a weight bolt in the butt, the weight of the cue is distributed along its entire length. This contributes significantly to the balance of the cue. A well-balanced cue will feel lighter in the player's hands than it really is. It will also feel and perform more like a one-piece cue."
 

Michael Webb

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
From Current Schuler web site;

The Schuler Joint - "The first challenge I faced as a cuemaker was to develop a better joint. The ideal joint is 'nature's joint,' that is, no joint at all, as in a one-piece cue. My goal in designing the Schuler joint was to duplicate, insofar as possible, the hit, the hit transmission, and the weight distribution of a one-piece cue. Hit transmission is defined as the vibrations that move up the cue to the player's hand to give him feedback on each shot.

"Several joint designs were in use when I started making cues: piloted, flat-faced, and the all-wood joint that had long been popular in Europe and the Orient. The piloted, stainless steel joints were strong, but very heavy. That extra weight in the form of a large hunk of metal in the middle of the cue acts as an inertial stop to the dynamics of the hit and its transmission. It also poses serious problems for properly balancing the cue [See Weight Distribution and Balance below].

"The few flat-faced joints that were both relatively light and designed with wood-to-wood contact offered good hit transmission, as did the all-wood joint. They were, however, not strong or durable enough, at least to my mind. The all-wood design is also the most climate-sensitive joint because the threads will always expand and contract in response to changes in relative humidity and temperature.

"What I wanted was a combination of a piloted and a flat-faced joint, offering the advantages of both and the disadvantages of neither. And after a good deal of research and development, that is what I ended up with. The Schuler joint is piloted, but it has even more wood-to-wood contact surface than the best flat-faced joints. The piloted design assures structural integrity and durability, while the wood-to-wood contact optimizes hit transmission.

"The Schuler joint is also very lightweight, thanks in part to using aircraft aluminum for the shaft insert and drilling out the brass joint pin. A lightweight joint enhances hit transmission while contributing importantly to the balance of the cue.

"The Schuler joint was the first interference fit joint in a cue. Interference fit means that the pilot on the shaft fits into the corresponding cavity in the butt tightly enough to create friction, or interference, between the two components. This ensures that the cue will never loosen during play. An interference fit joint is harder to build because of the tight tolerances required, but the benefits in terms of strength, performance, and durability are well worth the extra work.

"Aesthetically, the Schuler joint affords the ability to use any decorative material at the joint - ivory, buckhorn, exotic wood, brass, stainless steel, plastic, et cetera - without affecting the performance or balance of the cue. The 'work' the joint does takes place internally, so the material used for the outside sleeve of the joint coupling is essentially a cosmetic consideration.

"When a stainless steel or brass joint 'look' is desired, my design allows the outside metal sleeve to be quite thin. Thus we are able to provide the look that many players prefer, without the penalties of extra weight and poor hit transmission that are typical of metal-jointed cues."

Weight Distribution and Balance - "The entire Schuler joint adds at most only 13 grams to the weight of the cue. And because I've never used a weight bolt in the butt, the weight of the cue is distributed along its entire length. This contributes significantly to the balance of the cue. A well-balanced cue will feel lighter in the player's hands than it really is. It will also feel and perform more like a one-piece cue."


Good read. Mr. Noel Mendoza still uses the joint screw set up the way Mr. Schuler did.
 

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Listen to this ideologist on this point.He knows about what he speaks ...some excellent and interesting information.
 
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