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02-01-2013, 03:29 AM

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Originally Posted by Wileydog View Post
Of course. My main goal in life is to learn the truth about Abe. Those damn liars.
Then why haven't you bothered to do so?


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02-01-2013, 03:29 AM

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Originally Posted by LWW View Post
Might I suggest "Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln." If you do you will learn that Lincoln never really objected to southern slavery, only to it's expnsion into new states ... and that objection was because he wanted these new states to be completely white.

You would also learn that Abe's post war plan was to ship all the slaves out of the country.

You do want to learn the truth ... don't you?
Don't forget the financial reasons behind freeing slaves. The political power of the south lay in cotton and cheap (or free) negro labor. No negroes means no cotton. No cotton means the industrializing north controls the country.

Allowing new agricultural states into the union would seal the fate of the north.

The Civil War, like all wars, was about money. People wanted to keep their money; Lincoln wanted to take it away.
  
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02-01-2013, 03:31 AM

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Originally Posted by Drew View Post
Okay...walk up to any child and ask, "What did Lincoln do?"

This verbal b1tchslap has been brought to you by Drew.
Members of the cult of Lincoln "BELIEVE" whatever the cult tells them they believe.


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02-01-2013, 06:51 AM

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Originally Posted by LWW View Post
Might I suggest "Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln." If you do you will learn that Lincoln never really objected to southern slavery, only to it's expnsion into new states ... and that objection was because he wanted these new states to be completely white.

You would also learn that Abe's post war plan was to ship all the slaves out of the country.

You do want to learn the truth ... don't you?
You forgot his fascist-leaning relationship with the railroad industry, too, re expansion westward.

Jeff Livingston
  
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02-01-2013, 06:54 AM

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Originally Posted by Drew View Post
Okay...walk up to any child and ask, "What did Lincoln do?"

This verbal b1tchslap has been brought to you by Drew.
What does that have to do with what they were taught about the civil war? Of course he is best known for the slavery.
  
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02-01-2013, 06:58 AM

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Originally Posted by Drew View Post
Don't forget the financial reasons behind freeing slaves. The political power of the south lay in cotton and cheap (or free) negro labor. No negroes means no cotton. No cotton means the industrializing north controls the country.

Allowing new agricultural states into the union would seal the fate of the north.

The Civil War, like all wars, was about money. People wanted to keep their money; Lincoln wanted to take it away.
Very good. It was all about keeping their money(slaves).
  
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02-01-2013, 07:08 AM

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Originally Posted by Wileydog View Post
Very good. It was all about keeping their money(slaves).
No quite. Slavery was being outcompeted worldwide. That's why it was ended many places without war.

The south would have lost economically anyway if it kept slavery as part of its economic process.

The war could have easily been avoided if Lincoln wanted it that way. He didn't. He could have simply used the govt rulebook that he swore to, but he instead decided to violate every rule in the book and war was the natural result of that brand of statism.

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02-01-2013, 07:12 AM

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Originally Posted by chefjeff View Post
No quite. Slavery was being outcompeted worldwide. That's why it was ended many places without war.

The south would have lost economically anyway if it kept slavery as part of its economic process.

The war could have easily been avoided if Lincoln wanted it that way. He didn't. He could have simply used the govt rulebook that he swore to, but he instead decided to violate every rule in the book and war was the natural result of that brand of statism.

Jeff Livingston
The south wasn't big on change.
  
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02-01-2013, 08:00 AM

If Lincoln actually ended slavery, why this fact that came about by following Lincoln's statist ways?:

$50,000 = avg govt spending per us househod
$50,000 = avg income per us household

If that is not slavery, can someone tell me what it is? How can ALL of one's efforts, risks, savings, investments be forcefully and fraudulently taken....ALL of those...without the producer/victim being a slave? I don't see how it cannot be slavery. Anyone?

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02-01-2013, 08:13 AM

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Originally Posted by chefjeff View Post
You forgot his fascist-leaning relationship with the railroad industry, too, re expansion westward.

Jeff Livingston
You and Drew are both correct ... but time does not allow me to report all of the crimes of Abraham the Terrible.


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02-01-2013, 08:20 AM

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Originally Posted by Wileydog View Post
Very good. It was all about keeping their money(slaves).
Not even close.

Going back to the drafting of the COTUS, rich southerners were able to have it codified that slaves were slaves ... but counted for terms of representation in the congress.

This gave these wealthy southerners political power disproportionate to their actual numbers ... and they weren't about to give it up easily.

Following emancipation, they continued their disproportionate representation by creating the KKK and terrorizing the former slaves into submission ... and the by Jim Crow laws ... and by gun control laws ... and by poll taxes ... and most recently by the welfare state.

And, they were democrats.


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02-01-2013, 08:21 AM

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Originally Posted by Wileydog View Post
The south wasn't big on change.
The democrats still aren't ... oppressing people of color and poor whites by whatever means are needed.


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02-01-2013, 08:23 AM

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Originally Posted by chefjeff View Post
The war could have easily been avoided if Lincoln wanted it that way. He didn't.

Jeff Livingston
Lincoln actually started the war by violating the terms of truce over Fort Sumter.


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02-01-2013, 09:15 AM

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Originally Posted by Wileydog View Post
The south wasn't big on change.
Here's a book review you might be interested in reading...

http://www.yaliberty.org/posts/book-...as-j-dilorenzo

Quote:
BOOK REVIEW: 'THE REAL LINCOLN' BY THOMAS J. DILORENZO

By Thomas J. DiLorenzo
Foreward by Walter E. Williams, George Mason University
361 Pages

DiLorenzo knocks the cover off the ball in this intriguing testament to the Great Centralizer himself, Abraham Lincoln. DiLorenzo systematically deconstructs conventional wisdom. He pulls away the veil that has been pulled over so many innocent eyes. Breaking the statist indoctrination that has been prevalent in this country for far too long is a fastidious undertaking. I would hope that more people will consider the very compelling case DiLorenzo makes in The Real Lincoln.

It would be one thing if DiLorenzo made his argument using broken logic and an illegitimate distortion of the historical record such that certain events appear in a more or less favorable light. As one reads The Real Lincoln, though, one realizes that the 559 footnotes and a bibliography that contains 88 entries is not all for naught. DiLorenzo’s passion gleams though the text.

I understand why he would be so passionate about writing about Abraham Lincoln. This era in American history is particularly steeped in controversy and pulls at the heart-strings of those that consider themselves so called “Civil War” buffs, Lincoln scholars, and history traditionalists. Like the intrepid alcoholics at their weekly meetings, they must accept they have a problem. That problem is that Lincoln escapes scrutiny and much of what they perpetuate about Lincoln is a myth.

DiLorenzo kicks the pedestal out from under Lincoln. He objects to kowtowing at Lincoln’s alter — and rightfully so. Why so many would persist in perpetuating this man’s legacy in positive light is beyond me. When it comes to Lincoln, the bottom line is that before the War between the States, government in America was highly decentralized and limited as envisioned by the founding fathers. “The war created the highly centralized state that Americans labor under today. The purpose of American government was transformed from the defense of individual liberty to the quest for empire.” (p. 2) And the truth shall set you free!

Lincoln was a politician and far from being a statesman. He was Alexander Hamilton’s political heir to the throne. The centralizing Hamiltonians became the Whigs and, later, the Republican Party ticket that Lincoln ran on. During Lincoln’s twenty-eight years in politics, he consistently disregarded life, liberty, and property in his shameless grab for dictatorial power. His agenda was to instate Henry Clay’s “American System”, a system synonymous with “protectionist tariffs, taxpayer subsidies for railroads and other corporations, and the nationalization of the money supply to help pay for the subsidies.” (p. 2) Not only was Lincoln’s economic agenda illegitimate, it was immoral.

Lincoln set abominable precedents in a time when standing on the principles this country was founded on should have been of utmost importance. The lack of noble leadership from the Lincoln Party uprooted this country into a war that was hardly necessary and set up martial law during a precarious and atrocious time known as the Reconstruction Era following the War between the States. Thankfully, the only thing standing in the way of Lincoln’s agenda of seizing absolute power was the Constitution, which he avoided at all costs.

Many believe the War between the States was fought over slavery and that Lincoln freed the slaves in his Emancipation Proclamation. This is not only a myth but plainly inaccurate. This was clearly not Lincoln’s intention and the Emancipation Proclamation was nothing more than a political gimmick. Even if the war were over slavery, why was such a costly war waged over it? Why did more than 620,000 Americans die ["roughly the equivalent of 5 million deaths -- about a hundred times the number of Americans who died in Vietnam" if standardized for today's population (p. 4)]? Why were whole towns plundered and burnt down and entire local and state economies destroyed? Why was the Constitution deliberately disregarded by Abraham Lincoln? Why wasn’t compensated emancipation considered? Why did dozens of other countries in the late 18th and 19th centuries peacefully resolve slavery? DiLorenzo rightfully paints Lincoln as a race antagonist whose views were overwhelming consistent with the majority of white Northerners of the time.

The battle for and of states’ rights has long been waged throughout the history of America. Since the signing of the Declaration of Succession from England, unique ideologies where present in political discussion regarding the appropriate path that the United States of America should follow (emphasis added). Many pit the states’ rights Jeffersonians against the centralizing Hamiltonians. One thing that Americans — both in the North and South — understood during the time was of the right of secession. Until 1861 most commentators took it for granted that states had a right to secede. It is absurd and a blatant fact that Lincoln believed no such right existed. As a prominent self-educated lawyer, Lincoln had the capacity to properly synthesize historical facts. Instead, as a prolific manipulator, Lincoln also had the capacity to invent new theories to better assist him in carrying out his alarming agenda.

Lincoln could have made much better decisions as president of the United States. Facts are, Lincoln chose to totally dismiss state sovereignty and waged the bloodiest war in world history up to that point to uphold federal overreach that hasn’t been rectified since his presidency. Lincoln launched a military invasion without the consent of Congress, suspended habeas corpus, imprisoned thousands of Northern citizens without trial for merely opposing his policies, censored all telegraph communication and imprisoned dozens of opposition newspaper publishers; nationalized the railroads; used Federal troops to interfere with elections; confiscated firearms; and imposed an economic policy that would forever embolden the power-hungry. As DiLorenzo notes often in his treatise, many “scholars” have openly celebrated the fact that Lincoln led the way in subverting constitutional government in America.

The death of federalism and the creation of the “military-industrial complex” were the unmistakable outcomes of Lincoln’s war. The Union that Lincoln supposedly saved was in reality destroyed. The states had agreed to a limited federal government. The states created the federal government voluntarily. The federal government did not create the states. Lincoln forced the Southern states to remain in the Union at gunpoint. “Lincoln can be said to have saved the Union only in a geographical sense.” (p. 8)

At this point, you must be thinking, “This sounds like the Tea Party dogma that has been filtering through the talking heads on TV.” As much as I appreciate the Tea Party as a social movement, I want to separate myself unequivocally from the Obama/Democrat bashing group of Tea Partiers that can’t see fault with Republicans today. I plant my flag firmly in my conviction that both the Democrats and Republicans are sympathetic to big federal government and have been for a long time. Rhetoric saying otherwise is a slap in the face to any that seek the truth.

Stephan Douglas accused Lincoln of wanting to “impose on the nation a uniformity of local laws and institutions and a moral homogeneity dictated by the central government” that would “place at defiance the intentions of the republic’s founders.” Oh how he was right! Lincoln must be please by the way he’s making the founding fathers roll in their respective graves. The 9th and 10th Amendments exist for a reason. It’s time we return to individual liberty, individual responsibility, the limited-government principles of the Constitution, and rule of law.

Far from being the Great Emancipator, Abraham Lincoln will forever sustain the legacy of being the Great Centralizer. Mr. DiLorenzo truly is a friend in liberty. I give this read two thumbs up, Ebert and Roeper-style.


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02-01-2013, 09:29 AM

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Originally Posted by LWW View Post
Might I suggest "Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln." If you do you will learn that Lincoln never really objected to southern slavery...
How odd that someone who "never really objected to southern slavery" would profess all of the following convictions in opposition to slavery:

"I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I cannot remember when I did not so think, and feel."

"Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally."

"I think slavery is wrong, morally, and politically. I desire that it should be no further spread in these United States, and I should not object if it should gradually terminate in the whole Union."

"Now, I confess myself as belonging to that class in the country who contemplate slavery as a moral, social and political evil, having due regard for its actual existence amongst us and the difficulties of getting rid of it in any satisfactory way, and to all the constitutional obligations which have been thrown about it; but, nevertheless, desire a policy that looks to the prevention of it as a wrong, and looks hopefully to the time when as a wrong it may come to an end."

"I did say, at Chicago, in my speech there, that I do wish to see the spread of slavery arrested and to see it placed where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in course of ultimate extinction."

"As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. This expresses my idea of democracy. Whatever differs from this, to the extent of the difference, is no democracy."

"I have always hated slavery, I think as much as any abolitionist."


"He knew what those jubilant crowds did not know, but could have learned from books; that the plague bacillus never dies or disappears for good...and that perhaps the day would come when, for the bane and the enlightening of men, it would rouse up its rats again and send them forth to die in a happy city."
  
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