Sandbagging at APA National level

been there twice and Ive only seen one player that i thought was seriously underrated.the pockets are buckets so a lot of shots that should miss to find the hole but all in all the stories i have heard have been worse from my personal experience...just shot your game and remember...pocket speed

Foolio said:

Onw of the reasons people bash the APA is the sandbagging/underrated player. That being said for those of you who have gone to vegas for Nationals, how many blatant examples of sandbagging do you see?

I am wondering about this because I will be going to nationals for eight ball and don't know what to expect. So many people speak of it that I'm going to start thinking that everyone is one sl up . Any experiences or stories out there?

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Worst_7_ever said:

I have been to 6 8 ball nationals, 2 nine ball nationals, and 1 singles nationals. The baggin is hard core. I was a bagger, my teams had at least 3-4 players playin 1 - 11/2 under where they should have been, and we took 3rd one year. Its there, and its hard core. if you dont have at least 2-4 baggers on your team that you can rotate in as needed without having to expose there real SL to much, your done. My favorite example of a bagger was when i was there in 2000 and playin in the 9 ball nationals. I was playin a 4, I was a 7 or 8 at the time, and he beat me in 1 inning. was pretty funny. Good luck out there.

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Well its nice for your honesty now but how do those teams that IMO you cheated out of a legitimate chance feel. The APA IMO is a game of SUDDUKO because of teams like you described. I play APA and will continue to play APA because: A. I have met a lot of great people through it and I enjoy most of them in fact almost all. B. Its anight out playing pool which I love. C. Its where I can play with my wife and my daughter on the same team. I do have a question for you?? When you won third? and "bagged" did that make you happy?? Was it worth the few bucks you made to "bag" for a year plus? Oh and by the the way I am the worst 7 but that is a clever name.

Foolio, go out there and play your game and you will do great don't worry or think about the sandbagging just play your game and have fun. MOST are honest and are there to have a great time like you.
DR

had a 2 play my lowest number which was a 4. needless to say she won 20-0 with 0 innings. in other words she broke and ran a 2 pack, 9 was made before the 8 so almost a 2 pack. that team made it into the 2nd round and during that match is finally when the APA DQd the entire team.

dr2112 said:

I do have a question for you?? When you won third? and "bagged" did that make you happy?? Was it worth the few bucks you made to "bag" for a year plus? Oh and by the the way I am the worst 7 but that is a clever name.

Foolio, go out there and play your game and you will do great don't worry or think about the sandbagging just play your game and have fun. MOST are honest and are there to have a great time like you.
DR

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I do agree Foolio, go out and have fun, don't worrie about the baggers, nothin you can do anyways.

I was at nationals 14 or 15 or so years ago. I saw a very pretty girl(2 handicapp) that caught my eye. I watched her play for a while and I was very impressed with her game. I was thinking to myself no way she's a 2. Now I wasn't on her team or the team she was playing. I was just a bystander watching. She stops to survey the table after her opponent played a good safe. I called the two refs over that were in between matches and just talking close by. I said "watch this girl for a sec". Now without a timeout she calls a 4 rail Kick, Carom in the corner. She shoots does everything she says but "jaws" the ball in the corner. I asked the 2 refs well are you going to move her up? Their answer "she missed the ball". I said "a 2 handicapp shouldn't know the concept of a 4 rail kick...or how to carom let alone incorporate them into one shot" again they said "but she missed the shot". That day I walked out and have never played another APA event...Been a BCA member ever since with NO REGRETS

daimion said:

had a 2 play my lowest number which was a 4. needless to say she won 20-0 with 0 innings. in other words she broke and ran a 2 pack, 9 was made before the 8 so almost a 2 pack. that team made it into the 2nd round and during that match is finally when the APA DQd the entire team.

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APA is rife with sandbaggers.

I have played in only a few APA 8-ball league sessions ever but I see clearly there is an expectation with most all teams for certain of their players to dump games. It's all about getting into the playoffs while keeping those caps as low as possible. This goes against my nature, it's blatant BS.

So, what's the big deal over going to Vegas and even winning there? Bragging rights that you, or your team, weaseled and cheated your way to a big trophy.

Best,
Brian kc

I realize that I'm being naive, but I still don't understand the concept of dumping games and still being able to make the playoffs. Somehow the math doesn't add up to me.

We have 6 teams all with legit shots at getting the 3 spots available (fourth is a wildcard, random drawn) with three weeks left. How can anyone be dumping games and still expect to get into the playoffs, which is the point of the thing?

Padding the innings, I understand that concept, and how it can work. Whether I agree or not, I understand it. I just don't see how teams make this "dumping" work.

Guess I'm glad that I don't understand it, I suppose... enjoy he spoils of your cheating, gang. You sure do seem proud of your accomplishments.

What people need to understand is that it's that its the poolplayers that are CHEATING and that's why pool will never amount to anything because to many folks would rather STEAL than just win!!

If there are handicaps involved and money to be won, there is sandbagging. It's not an APA-specific issue; rather, it's a pool, golf, bowling, sports-in-general issue.

They need to invent a system that rewards someone for playing well. At the same time, they need to find a way to make people feel OK about losing to a better player.

Since the latter would prob never happen, sit back...get comfy.... and get used to sandbagging. It's like flies in a garbage can--- there's no getting rid of them.

I am fairly new to Pool and only play TAP currently, I guess I won't be asked to play APA. I have one objective and one only when I reach the table, beat the other player every rack as quickly and easily as I can. I will never throw a game, don't ask me too it ain't going to happen. If you do I will be looking for another team and your ears will be ringing for a week, when I tell you exactly what I think of you and your ethics and morals, well lack of them.

Am I wrong in this, am I just retarded, do I just not get it, is Pool that much of a game for losers, liars and cheats?

Georgia Boy said:

I am fairly new to Pool and only play TAP currently, I guess I won't be asked to play APA. I have one objective and one only when I reach the table, beat the other player every rack as quickly and easily as I can. I will never throw a game, don't ask me too it ain't going to happen. If you do I will be looking for another team and your ears will be ringing for a week, when I tell you exactly what I think of you and your ethics and morals, well lack of them.

Am I wrong in this, am I just retarded, do I just not get it, is Pool that much of a game for losers, liars and cheats?

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I second your sentiment but it's clearly what the system allows and people are always trying to find an edge into the finals because of it. It really does suck that so much positioning takes place in handicapped leagues. I used to play in local leagues and in the VNEA so I've watched plenty of sandbagging. The funniest part to me is when you see the well known players sitting on a clearly stacked team with an unknown player or two who brings down their average like it's not obvious to all who know them. Don't take the sandbagging to heart and see it for the game it really is. It's transparent on the local level as most players aren't brand new to the players in the league and it's actually talked about pretty openly in leagues as pool tourney strategy. Although no one likes to be outdone in the bagging department or to be beat in general in leagues it's secretly and sadly admired as good strategy when people are out-bagged.
I loved everything about playing in leagues except for the sandbagging but until the system changes it's going to exist. I personally never bagged as I was part of a group of people that wanted to improve and actually weighted our team properly letting the ratings fall where they should be. We still won our local division regularly and got moved up the old way, by playing better and dealing with the rules.
The draw to bag especially to get to Vegas and win, I'm speaking VNEA specifically is the money. There are always fewer high level players A or above level tournaments because of this. The bagging brings the better players, the competition and the money to the B level tournament as we all know even without bagging that there are more B or below level players out there then there are A and above. So by a natural curve most players and therefore the money falls to the middle of the road part of the tournament. At least one nice thing about the Vegas VNEA tournaments is that if you win you cannot play on the same team again in that tournament and would have to play in the masters but keep in mind all the thousands of players that do not win have another shot at it and still have the option to bag to stack their team. I didn't exactly lay out the masters tourney rule correctly here but I don't have a handbook to go by handy to do better. Hope this helps you understand the dynamics of handicapped league play and where bagging can come into the picture.

Sandbagging happened long before the Nationals.....SPF=randyg

Just remember one thing. There are skill level judges (unmarked) in the stands. These are LO's that have experience. So for those who will bag, you'd better be good at it. The problem with the system is that its like horse racing. The fixes happen AFTER the match, in most circumstances.

tim

Pooln8r
Thanks for the explanation and I do get it (sandbagging) but I also don't get it, if you know what I mean.

It's just alien to me, trying to lose just to maybe help in your next match is a concept I simply don't understand. If these 'sandbaggers' are genuinely good players shouldn't they be able to beat their opponent even when handicapped correctly?

Maybe we need to have a panel of judges who could be called when something like this happens. They could watch the match and make a judgement then and there. The penalty I suggest would be that they have a button which, when pushed, passed and electric shock to the rail. Meaning these cheats play under a handicap just as their opponent does :yikes:

Worst_7_ever said:

We made it all the way to the to the fifth place match, and were still alive when we got DQ'd. We had 5 players rasied 1 handicap each. The first guy went out and was beaten his first match of the friggin turny and got raised after it, next our 1 won 5 matchs in a row all 12-8 score with an ungodley amount of innings, and really wasnt even baggin, then we had two legit rasies, and the final one was when our captain - 4, went out and beat some guy up bad, but with a lot of innings. It was strange, cause it seemed like the other team was just laying down. Well we won, then got DQ'd. The team we just beat then went out and advanced and promptly lost there next match. Now about 6 months later I run into a guy at a BCA turny and we start talkin about APa and stuff...turns out he was the captain of the team we beat in that last match. He told me that his whole team was dumpin in our match because they too had 4 players already raised, and didnt want to take any chances. It was rather comical that they were better baggers then us...gotta love the APA.

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This is exactly why I can only consider the APA as a fun/social league. I do not care if my teams EVER make it to Vegas. Making the division playoffs is not really that big of a deal to me. Worst_7_ever gives a very real example of what COULD happen to an honest player at Vegas. If you have a couple of matches where you shoot better than your skill level (and MOST lower to intermediate players do this, usually followed by a few matches where you shoot your skill level or under it), you risk getting unfairly raised a skill level. If you can't hold that skill level up, you are no good to your team for the rest of that tournament, plus future league play. This happens to honest players BECAUSE OF THE CHEATERS. This happened to a lady friend of mine who took 3rd place in 8-ball singles a few years ago. She got raised from a SL3 to a SL4 because of her "showing". I wasn't there, but she must have just gotten into that "zone" we sometimes get in (or maybe got a LOT of good rolls) as she is CERTAINLY NOT a SL4. She quit playing 8-ball altogether after the next session because she couldn't win a match as a SL4 and she was "locked-in" to that skill level. Sad, the kind of problems cheaters can cause us honest folks, and they don't realize it or simply just don't care.

I know I wouldn't want my skill level raised based on a few good matches played in a row. I do it all the time in league and follow them up with par/subpar matches. Geez, they have a formula for AVERAGING your talent. Why throw it all out the window just because you are at a larger venue??? I guess they consider screwing the honest people "collateral damage" :sorry:!!!

Maniac

Sandbagging never happens in the APA, they have the EQUALIZER.

Sandbagging never happens in TAP, they have lots of paperwork.

Georgia Boy said:

Pooln8r
Thanks for the explanation and I do get it (sandbagging) but I also don't get it, if you know what I mean.

It's just alien to me, trying to lose just to maybe help in your next match is a concept I simply don't understand. If these 'sandbaggers' are genuinely good players shouldn't they be able to beat their opponent even when handicapped correctly?

Maybe we need to have a panel of judges who could be called when something like this happens. They could watch the match and make a judgement then and there. The penalty I suggest would be that they have a button which, when pushed, passed and electric shock to the rail. Meaning these cheats play under a handicap just as their opponent does :yikes:

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I don't know the APA very well or how they structure a team but based on the leagues I do know I think that it's possible that if the players played their full speed that they wouldn't be able to play together on the same team with the people they want to play with. Of course they could always move up or give up more when playing another team and if that's the case then of course they should be able to compete together. The sandbagging concept in league play to me is just another form of hustling and it definitely isn't helping pool look better to new comers or leave it's somewhat seedy recent history. I don't personally get it either and the only way to deal with it is to create a team that doesn't sandbag, do the right thing and stick to your guns even when it's all getting to you. It's good to do things with character even if in leagues that feels like banging your head against a wall. It's kind of like the people we all know at our jobs that do very little at work but act busy. Gets them a check with the least amount of effort and if they're friendly with the right people sometimes moves them where they want to go even though they haven't proved they're worth it. Not exactly the same thing but it tends to get the same reaction. Wish there was an impartial and unbiased judge in the workplace too