Diamond versus Brunswick

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Has Brunswick resolved the issue with cushions hardening abruptly?

Or how about warped slate?

Brunswick quality is low for the money. Better than lower brands or home-tables...but for pro-level commercial tables they are overpriced.

Ya, there's areas where Diamond isn't great. However, the difference is that Diamond puts all their quality where it counts. Brunswick is more about looks. I prefer the look of the GC myself, but the Diamond is a better table. Lately....I been preferring the look of a classic home table. Brunswick does achieve a high degree of good playability, but not with quality.

Diamond's rails are more solid. They are also straighter and more true. Pockets are much better. Having 1-piece slate option is also better. While either can be leveled, 1-piece slate eliminates any issues with the seams, as there are none. Diamond has a better leveling system.

Diamond uses Artemis rubber, which is regarded as the best and has a good reputation. Brunswick's rubber has had major QC issues (hardening)...

You can bridge anywhere on a Diamond at any angle without scraping up your cue or having any issues. On a GC, you will be scraping it against the metal, or if on a pocket, getting nasty plastic streaks on there.

The ProAM is an ugly table, but the most solid. The Pro is better looking.

Gold Crowns should only be compared against Diamond Pros, not ProAM as the ProAM is a giant high end, over built bar box.

Considering the GC is made in China and sells for around $3000 more than a Diamond which is made in America - Brunswick's profit margin is insane and borderline insulting.

Speaking of price, $3000 is not pocket change. You can buy a whole other (good) table for that if you have the space. Outfit a game room. Buy a nice custom cue. Buy a new set of tournament balls every 2 years for the next 18 years....
Both are high quality commercial tables, but most regular players do seem to prefer one over the other. Most poolrooms that have newer tables generally have Diamond Smart tables as opposed to newer Brunswick Gold Crown tables, which is a pretty clear sign the Diamond's are considered a better value.

I'm unaware of whether Brunswick currently offers a lease program to poolrooms to use their tables like Diamond does, but that could have something to do with it as well. I'm curious how much $/month that lease is on either a Diamond Smart barbox or 9-foot Smart table? I'm assuming it's at least $250 / month, making the payback for the cost of the table roughly 2 years.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just like you can be a really good 14.1 player even if you've never run 50+ balls, by playing smart and ending your turn at the table with a good safety, you can likewise be a very strong 9-ball player without ever having B&R more than 3 consecutive racks.
Totally agree.
 

Grilled Cheese

p.i.i.t.h.
Silver Member
Both are high quality commercial tables, but most regular players do seem to prefer one over the other. Most poolrooms that have newer tables generally have Diamond Smart tables as opposed to newer Brunswick Gold Crown tables, which is a pretty clear sign the Diamond's are considered a better value.

I'm unaware of whether Brunswick currently offers a lease program to poolrooms to use their tables like Diamond does, but that could have something to do with it as well. I'm curious how much $/month that lease is on either a Diamond Smart barbox or 9-foot Smart table? I'm assuming it's at least $250 / month, making the payback for the cost of the table roughly 2 years.


Don't know the economics of it on a bulk or commercial level. But for home owners, Brunswick is a massive rip off. $9,500 for a Chinese made GC with inferior cushions? LOL.


I own a GC.

So no one can accuse me of being a Brunswick hater or a Diamond fanboy. I speak from experience.

It is different to shoot on a table in a pool room, and different to own one in your home.

In your home, you "hear" and "feel" the table a lot more. Pool rooms are large, noisy places. You get a much better idea of which table is more solid in a home.


For a Pool Room as a non-owner of a pool room....assuming prices are equal (I'd still take Diamond if they were a little more than the Brunswick), Diamond is better. Here's why:

(I'm going to sound like a salesman)


Dymondwood rails. Damn near indestructible. While GC hold up well commercially relative to most tables, Diamonds still look new after more than a decade. Amazing rails. They are on a whole other level of longevity.

Artemis rubber. They claim 30 years. I doubt that. But...SuperSpeed is trash. I know Diamond tables in pool rooms whose rubber made it to about 18-20 years. Not bad. That's a cost savings.

Better than the cost savings is the fact that the LESS you change the cushions, the less messed up the table will become.

Not every mechanic is top-notch. Most are awful. Not every mechanic removes cushions and replaces them in the same way. Meaning cushions might be high or low a tiny bit. They might be inconsistent. How well was previous adhesive cleaned or removed from the rails? How was it removed? This makes a big difference.

Rubber that lasts that long justifies paying a top-notch nationally respected mechanic to come in and update them. Garbage rubber that needs replacement every 5-6 years is more expensive even using a cheaper, lower skilled mechanic. Plus, they will gaff up the table. Which is what happens 90% of the time in most rooms.


Cloth changes (yearly) can be done without having to manipulate the ball return system. This is huge. Constant assembly and disassembly of the ball return on GC's mangles them over time. Plus, Diamond's ball return is quieter, faster and more reliable.

One piece slate eliminates tons of headaches when it comes to seams.

ProAM is more solid frame and body. The slate is leveled relative to the frame, and the frame leveled to the floor. That said, in a pool room it is much easier to move a ProAM than a Gold Crown. Why would you move a table? New carpet? Renovations? Maybe changing layouts....that need arises.

People think because it is 1 piece slate it is harder. It's not. It's better to deal with the massive weight of the whole table in 1 piece, than it is to deal with complete disassembly and rebuild of the table to move it. With 3 people, you can tip the Diamond onto its side and onto the cart to move it. This does nothing to harm the table.

Yes, I have seen rooms jack up a GC and lay it on dolly to move them. This totally messed up the table. This puts stress on the frame and legs where not intended. It ruins the level of the table.....which brings us to this --

Diamond can be leveled without breaking down the table. Huge factor there.

Diamond is built to be handled and moved as a whole table, GC is not.


In the end, if I were to open a pool room and had to choose between GC or Diamond, unless the GC came at a significant discount over the Diamond, I would not go with the GC. The GC will cost more in the long run too. That is, if the room owner cares about good playing tables.


Bottom line, Diamond with th Proam/smarttable engineered the ultimate commercial pro level table that has virtually all advantages and practically no downsides.
 

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Silver Member
Brunswick Superspeed rubber has no doubt had its issues caused by changing manufacturers and being cheap. To my knowledge, those issues are far gone and way before my time in this business.

I go through a many sets a years have for the last 6 years and no issues. Not to say there won't be in the future, but, for now all is well.


Its nice to see what other people think about the 2.

Brunswick taught everyone how to make pool tables, well actually most copied their designs and made their own adjustments. So in my opinion the question is really not answerable other than peoples personal preference or professional knowledge. Brunswick has been making pool tables since 1845 and inspired other companies like Diamond Billiards to make their own. Hats off to Greg Sullivan, Chad, Brian, Aaron, Ray, Gerrick, Rob and all the crew over at Diamond Billiards, DONT FORGET RKC FOR HOW MUCH HE HAD TO DO WITH DIAMOND!!!! Time to go finish up the 9th 9' GC3 complete restoration at MissCue South here in Toledo :) Have a great day everyone!

Trent


Trent
 
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Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You mean you ran a 5-pack once, twice in your pool career or you run them consistently - like at least once a week/month? On a 9ft table with 5" pockets or tighter?

Just once, in a tournament. And to be honest, my opponent had just scratched on the break, as well.

I call it a rolling start.
 

Chalk & Awe

Registered
Brunswick Superspeed rubber has no doubt had its issues caused by changing manufacturers and being cheap. To my knowledge, those issues are far gone and way before my time in this business.

I go through a many sets a years have for the last 6 years and no issues. Not to say there won't be in the future, but, for now all is well.

Its nice to see what other people think about the 2.

Brunswick taught everyone how to make pool tables, well actually most copied their designs and made their own adjustments. So in my opinion the question is really not answerable other than peoples personal preference or professional knowledge. Brunswick has been making pool tables since 1845 and inspired other companies like Diamond Billiards to make their own. Hats off to Greg Sullivan, Chad, Brian, Aaron, Ray, Gerrick, Rob and all the crew over at Diamond Billiards!!!! Time to go finish up the 9th 9' GC3 complete restoration at MissCue South here in Toledo :) Have a great day everyone!

Trent


Trent

Hello Trent,

What would you buy for your home basement a GCVI or a PRO-AM?

What advantages and disadvantages for each?

Your input is much appreciated!

Thank you,

C&A :smile:
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Both great tables. Done right, nobody should whine how they play.
Diamonds are prettier .
Gold Crowns play like no other b/c of that tear shaped rails.
In California, almost all serious pool halls have Gold Crowns.
Players are just used to them here. Hard Times ( SoCal and NoCal ), Shooters, Stix, etc.
When they had a Diamond table in Hard Times here, nobody would play on it.
Even though the pockets on the Gold Crowns were tighter back then ( back in the late 90's and early 2000's ).
Diamonds do play tougher . You can hit deep on that end rail pocket facing and with outside spin on the cue ball, the object ball is likely to be spit out if shot at 3-rail speed when the cloth wears out ).

Just be glad we don't see Murrey and Gandy at the pool halls now. lol
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"Blue Label Diamonds"???
With input from RKC Diamond changed the downward pitch of the cushion tops in 2010. This was what caused the short banking issues. The newer tables have blue "Diamond" logos instead of red. They play great.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hello Trent,

What would you buy for your home basement a GCVI or a PRO-AM?

What advantages and disadvantages for each?

Your input is much appreciated!

Thank you,

C&A :smile:

What are you looking for? What is your budget? Your profile says you are in Canada... what tables are available there? Are you looking new and price is no object? Are you a serious player? What aesthetic do you like? Do you compete regularly on a specific brand of table? Have you played on both tables yourself? All these questions are relevant to the answers you are looking for.

One thing about the Brunswick Goldcrown, they retail for 11 or 12k USD, but we have at least one member here who bought a GC4 (when they were new) from a dealer for about 6K installed. So there is probably a lot of negotiating room with a Brunswick dealer.

If you are considering used, than a GC is more like 2k USD to 3k USD installed depending on condition, and you will be way more likely to find one than a used Diamond simply because there are a ton of them out there.

The GC vs Diamond debate is as old as time. Plenty of people have super strong opinions one way or the other.
 
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ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Both great tables. Done right, nobody should whine how they play.
Diamonds are prettier .
Gold Crowns play like no other b/c of that tear shaped rails.
In California, almost all serious pool halls have Gold Crowns.
Players are just used to them here. Hard Times ( SoCal and NoCal ), Shooters, Stix, etc.
When they had a Diamond table in Hard Times here, nobody would play on it.
Even though the pockets on the Gold Crowns were tighter back then ( back in the late 90's and early 2000's ).
Diamonds do play tougher . You can hit deep on that end rail pocket facing and with outside spin on the cue ball, the object ball is likely to be spit out if shot at 3-rail speed when the cloth wears out ).

Just be glad we don't see Murrey and Gandy at the pool halls now. lol
Joey, you failed to mention that over the last 25 years, Ernesto has totally revamped virtually all those Gold Crown's in all those CA poolrooms by replacing them with Artemis cushions and lengthening the subrails to significantly change/tighten the pocket specs. As a result, on most of those tables, even though the pocket mouth measurement was equal to or in many cases even tighter than Diamond tour cut pockets, a more forgiving pocket angle resulted in the pockets on those altered Gold Crown's playing better/fairer than the Diamond pockets. Without those alterations by Ernesto, the Gold Crown's likely wouldn't have been preferred over the Diamond tables in most of those CA poolrooms.
 
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ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
Just once, in a tournament. And to be honest, my opponent had just scratched on the break, as well.

I call it a rolling start.

The only big competition run I had (because I just never got to play a lot of big tournaments due to work) was a 4-pack against Joey Gray at Derby.

Does that count for an honorable mention? :grin-square::grin-square::grin-square:
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Joey, you failed to mention that over the last 25 years, Ernesto has totally revamped virtually all those Gold Crown's in all those CA poolrooms by replacing them with Artemis cushions and lengthening the subrails to significantly change/tighten the pocket specs. As a result, on most of those tables, even though the pocket mouth measurement was equal to or in many cases even tighter than Diamond tour cut pockets, a more forgiving pocket angle resulted in the pockets on those altered Gold Crown's playing better/fairer than the Diamond pockets. Without those alterations by Ernesto, the Gold Crown's likely wouldn't have been preferred over the Diamond tables in most of those CA poolrooms.

Well, as I said , GC's done right .
Those GC's are OLD. Really OLD. Most are 2's. A lot of 3's of course .
Kenny later went with Steve to do his tables .
Stix has Steve work on their tables. So do Shooters now afaik.

And I did mention Diamonds play tough because they spit out balls hit even deep in the end rail facings. That angle and deep shelf are just brutal when the cloth gets old. Or when the balls are dirty .

Ernesto knows this so he had made that angle tighter.
 

Meucciplayer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
@Black Balled. Sent you a greenie for your honesty :)

WRT subject title: I grew up with old Gold Crowns in US Army installations/housing areas all over the world. Don't know what model they were in the late '70s and thru the 80's but I suppose they were I, II and/or III models. What I hated about them was that you could tear your pants and shirts on the metal parts. From the looks of the GC VI they still have not gotten rid of that problem:

https://www.brunswickbilliards.com/gold-crown-vi/

Even on their advertisement page you can see sharp metal parts around the pockets. If you play hundreds and thousands of hours on a table you are bound to damage your clothing on those. For a table in that price category this is a no-go. The metal edges should at least be rounded/bent inside so much as to avoid that problem after so many years of experience with building pool tables.

Also, white or light-colored clothing tended to get discolored from the metal - don't know if that is still the case. My experience with Diamonds is very limited as those are rare as hen's teeth over here in Central Europe, where I live nowadays. But - if I had the room for a full-size table I would go Diamond, I suppose. Even though those are considerably more expensive over here.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
@Black Balled. Sent you a greenie for your honesty :)

WRT subject title: I grew up with old Gold Crowns in US Army installations/housing areas all over the world. Don't know what model they were in the late '70s and thru the 80's but I suppose they were I, II and/or III models. What I hated about them was that you could tear your pants and shirts on the metal parts. From the looks of the GC VI they still have not gotten rid of that problem:

https://www.brunswickbilliards.com/gold-crown-vi/

Even on their advertisement page you can see sharp metal parts around the pockets. If you play hundreds and thousands of hours on a table you are bound to damage your clothing on those. For a table in that price category this is a no-go. The metal edges should at least be rounded/bent inside so much as to avoid that problem after so many years of experience with building pool tables.

Also, white or light-colored clothing tended to get discolored from the metal - don't know if that is still the case. My experience with Diamonds is very limited as those are rare as hen's teeth over here in Central Europe, where I live nowadays. But - if I had the room for a full-size table I would go Diamond, I suppose. Even though those are considerably more expensive over here.

True that! Several times while walking around a Gold Crown table, a piece of my clothing (shirt or pants) got caught or snagged on a metal edge and tore. Hate that! :angry:
 
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