Making the wing ball from the box?

CreeDo

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
So, we all saw shane put up a nice 6-pack in the US Open, and his secret seemed to be that he was drilling in the wing ball while everyone else (except maybe ralph E.) was baffled by it.

So, here are some questions.

1. Is it possible to make the wing ball from the box, with a perfectly frozen rack, hitting the head ball square?

I thought so but several people (notably Joe Tucker) say it isn't. There has to be a gap in the rack somewhere.

2. People have said it's because the 2 ball was a bit loose. If that's true, is there a rule that requires every ball to be dead frozen? If a certain ball refuses to freeze, is a player allowed to just accept it and walk away? Would that be against the rules or at least immoral? Are they obligated to keep laboring away at the rack until everything is perfect?

3. If there is no gap, is there some other trick you can use to make the wing ball? I've seen a few people suggest it was just a matter of power.

I'm not convinced. What is happening on a physics level that allows, say, a 24 mph break to drop the wing ball, while a 22 mph does not?

4. Do you think the US Open would be better off or worse if the used a magic rack? Then nobody can complain about gaps, but the racks will probably become so predictably consistent that everyone will figure out some way to make the wing ball.
 
Kid Dynomite

Kid Dynomite

Dennis (Michael) Wilson
Silver Member
CreeDo said:
So, we all saw shane put up a nice 6-pack in the US Open, and his secret seemed to be that he was drilling in the wing ball while everyone else (except maybe ralph E.) was baffled by it.

So, here are some questions.

1. Is it possible to make the wing ball from the box, with a perfectly frozen rack, hitting the head ball square?
NO
I thought so but several people (notably Joe Tucker) say it isn't. There has to be a gap in the rack somewhere.
Yes must leave a gap!

2. People have said it's because the 2 ball was a bit loose. If that's true, is there a rule that requires every ball to be dead frozen? If a certain ball refuses to freeze, is a player allowed to just accept it and walk away? Would that be against the rules or at least immoral? Are they obligated to keep laboring away at the rack until everything is perfect?

Labor away or play 10 ball!
3. If there is no gap, is there some other trick you can use to make the wing ball? I've seen a few people suggest it was just a matter of power.
Not Power Related

I'm not convinced. What is happening on a physics level that allows, say, a 24 mph break to drop the wing ball, while a 22 mph does not?

4. Do you think the US Open would be better off or worse if the used a magic rack? Then nobody can complain about gaps, but the racks will probably become so predictably consistent that everyone will figure out some way to make the wing ball.Yes, better off with Magic Rack & Break Box!!! Need Both!
Click to expand...



My thoughts!!!
Kd
 
Majic

Majic

With The Lights ON !!
Silver Member
CreeDo said:
So, we all saw shane put up a nice 6-pack in the US Open, and his secret seemed to be that he was drilling in the wing ball while everyone else (except maybe ralph E.) was baffled by it.

So, here are some questions.

1. Is it possible to make the wing ball from the box, with a perfectly frozen rack, hitting the head ball square? YES

I thought so but several people (notably Joe Tucker) say it isn't. There has to be a gap in the rack somewhere.I can do it with the majic rack and thats tight

2. People have said it's because the 2 ball was a bit loose. If that's true, is there a rule that requires every ball to be dead frozen? If a certain ball refuses to freeze, is a player allowed to just accept it and walk away? Would that be against the rules or at least immoral? Are they obligated to keep laboring away at the rack until everything is perfect?

3. If there is no gap, is there some other trick you can use to make the wing ball? I've seen a few people suggest it was just a matter of power.

I'm not convinced. What is happening on a physics level that allows, say, a 24 mph break to drop the wing ball, while a 22 mph does not?

4. Do you think the US Open would be better off or worse if the used a magic rack? Then nobody can complain about gaps, but the racks will probably become so predictably consistent that everyone will figure out some way to make the wing ball.
Click to expand...


Just my thoughts
 
The Renfro

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
I have a theory on what happened but it will take Joe T. or Bob J. to answer it until I have time to test it....

In the Niels/Dennis match Dennis was making the wing like clockwork.... Niels called in Ken Shuman and he proceeded to pound the balls into the table to try and get them to freeze... I only saw him hit the ball behind the wing ball and the 2 ball at the back with the cue ball and he hit them very very hard.....

If the ball behind the wing ball was driven into the cloth deep enough I think that the differences in the equators of the 2 balls was allowing the wing ball to actually climb over the ball behind it and change the angle it was coming out of the rack.....

I know on several of Shane's monster breaks you could actually see the wing ball jumping into the corner pocket elevated off of the table's surface... Even the commentators were pointing it out and asking to see it on replay.....

I think I can actually modify one of my templates to mimic the discrepancy in equator height... My son has a playoff football game tonight so in all likelihood it will be late tonight or tomorrow before I can get somewhere to test the theory..... Maybe by then Bob or Joe will have stopped in.......
 
Black-Balled

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The Renfro said:
I have a theory ...I know on ...you could actually see the wing ball jumping into the corner pocket elevated off of the table's surface... Even the commentators were pointing it out and asking to see it on replay.....
....
Click to expand...
I lost hill-hiil at the Convention Center and my opponent was making the winger like that- flew into the pocket- and ran 3 racks before I made myself check rack.

There was a big gap behind the winger. When it was elimimintated, it no longer went in.
 
The Renfro

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
Black-Balled said:
I lost hill-hiil at the Convention Center and my opponent was making the winger like that- flew into the pocket- and ran 3 racks before I made myself check rack.

There was a big gap behind the winger. When it was elimimintated, it no longer went in.
Click to expand...

The players did check Shane's rack and the ref was checking it the last day for the matches.... There was no visible gap so something else has to be at play...

I was thinking that maybe the 4ball was under sized since it was behind the wing several times when Shane made the wing and it was the wing when Dennis made a couple in the heart at the end...

When I checked the balls and saw that they were not worn in any way I put the balls in the rack area and I noted how deeply they settled into the divots in the back of the rack... You could feel the back 3 with your finger while the others really weren't noticeable.....
 
P

poolhustla61508

Yea....That just happened
Silver Member
No one in this thread in particular is hating on Shane but alot of people at the tourney were saying he was somehow cheating to make the wing ball so consistently.
I say all of them are morons. Shane played Donny that race to 100 and saw how dominant someone could be when they LEARN how to read the rack and break the balls. Shane put In the time to learn how to break 9 ball and I think that shows the dedication he has because the information is out there for anyone to learn he just actually put in the practice time to master it....just goes to show that Shane has a better work ethic and more determination than any other player out there today
 
Jaden

Jaden

"no buds chill"
Silver Member
its power with force follow

CreeDo said:
So, we all saw shane put up a nice 6-pack in the US Open, and his secret seemed to be that he was drilling in the wing ball while everyone else (except maybe ralph E.) was baffled by it.

So, here are some questions.

1. Is it possible to make the wing ball from the box, with a perfectly frozen rack, hitting the head ball square?

I thought so but several people (notably Joe Tucker) say it isn't. There has to be a gap in the rack somewhere.

2. People have said it's because the 2 ball was a bit loose. If that's true, is there a rule that requires every ball to be dead frozen? If a certain ball refuses to freeze, is a player allowed to just accept it and walk away? Would that be against the rules or at least immoral? Are they obligated to keep laboring away at the rack until everything is perfect?

3. If there is no gap, is there some other trick you can use to make the wing ball? I've seen a few people suggest it was just a matter of power.

I'm not convinced. What is happening on a physics level that allows, say, a 24 mph break to drop the wing ball, while a 22 mph does not?

4. Do you think the US Open would be better off or worse if the used a magic rack? Then nobody can complain about gaps, but the racks will probably become so predictably consistent that everyone will figure out some way to make the wing ball.
Click to expand...

it is possible. I tested it with the magic rack. It takes a really hard square break with a specific amount of force follow.

Jaden
 
OnTheMF

OnTheMF

I know things
Silver Member
Let me start off by saying I don't want to take anything away from Shane's win, because he played great. Both players were playing on the same equipment, and even Dennis switched to Shane's break half way through the match. Dennis did the same thing in the Niels match and was making the same wing ball in the same corner pocket, so fair is fair. That's just how the table was breaking, and they took full advantage of it.

BUT.... the wing ball simply does not go straight in the corner when hit from the box. There was a gap. No doubt in my mind whatsoever. They had been having troubles racking the balls tight around that wing ball all week. Those problems didn't magically disappear, the only thing that happened was that Shane found a way to take advantage of it. Good for him, there's nothing wrong with doing that IMO.

One more thing to consider is that Dennis switched to using Shane's break about half way through the finals. He only made that wing ball straight in the corner once, and here's the reason: Shane was racking very quickly and just throwing them up there. When Dennis racked he was putting in the extra effort to freeze all the balls, this obviously eliminated the gap that made that break work.
 
Kid Dynomite

Kid Dynomite

Dennis (Michael) Wilson
Silver Member
Jaden said:
it is possible. I tested it with the magic rack. It takes a really hard square break with a specific amount of force follow.

Jaden
Click to expand...

Only from the rail not from the box and certainly not cut breaking to get enough force needed.

Kd

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Xparent SkyBlue Tapatalk 2
 
Kid Dynomite

Kid Dynomite

Dennis (Michael) Wilson
Silver Member
The Renfro said:
The players did check Shane's rack and the ref was checking it the last day for the matches.... There was no visible gap so something else has to be at play...
Click to expand...
Not true they only checked the gap in front of wing ball and never checked the two ball in back was FROZEN!


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Xparent SkyBlue Tapatalk 2
 
J

jt1

Registered
It definitely does go from the Box. Anyone saying it doesn't should practice the break more.

I practiced it for about an hour and I figured it out. There were no gaps anywhere and I was not using the magic rack.

I can't do it every time like Shane, but I got to the point where I could do it about every other rack.
 
Last edited:
A

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
CreeDo said:
So, we all saw shane put up a nice 6-pack in the US Open ...
Click to expand...

I don't know whether Shane had a 6-pack in a non-streamed match, but that did not happen in any of the 4 streamed matches involving Shane. Here are his B&R's:

vs. van Den Berg -- 6 B&R's out of 11 breaks (a two-pack, a 3-pack, and a singleton)

vs. Parica -- 4 of 11 (1, 1, 2)

vs. Pagulayan -- 6 of 10 (3, 1, 2)

vs. Orcollo -- 6 of 13 (1, 3, 2)

Total for 4 streamed matches -- 22 out of 45 (49% !!!!!), with a high of a 3-pack.

[Sorry this isn't directly on topic, but I'm a stickler for accuracy in statements about match results.]
 
Kid Dynomite

Kid Dynomite

Dennis (Michael) Wilson
Silver Member
jt1 said:
It definitely does go from the Box. Anyone saying it doesn't should practice the break more.

I practiced it for about an hour and I figured it out. There were no gaps anywhere and I was not using the majic rack.

I can't do it every time like Shane, but I got to the point where I could do it about every other rack.
Click to expand...

Only done if the back ball is not FROZEN! Magic rack freezes back ball!
:sly::sly::sly:

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Xparent SkyBlue Tapatalk 2
 
M

MN_Josh

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The wing ball can be made every time on a bar box with a magic rack. The wing ball can be made everytime on a 9 footer too with a magic rack from within the box. If you're interested I can dig up a video from the bar box championships that proves it.
 
J

jt1

Registered
Kid Dynomite said:
Only done if the back ball is not FROZEN! Magic rack freezes back ball!
:sly::sly::sly:

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Xparent SkyBlue Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...

I didn't use the magic rack, and all of the balls were frozen, guaranteed.

Yes, it goes. You don't have to believe me.
 
JMuck

JMuck

Registered User
Silver Member
Kid Dynomite said:
Not true they only checked the gap in front of wing ball and never checked the two ball in back was FROZEN!


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Xparent SkyBlue Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...

Don't you think Jay and Alex may have snuck a peak at the 2-ball gap beings it was only 2.25 inches away.I don't think at that moment anything was going to get past those two guys.
 
Last edited:
JoeyInCali

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Well, maybe make the wing ball not count if pocketed on the break. :eek:
They made 9-ball in the bottom corners a no-count.
 
J

jt1

Registered
JoeyInCali said:
Well, maybe make the wing ball not count if pocketed on the break. :eek:
They made 9-ball in the bottom corners a no-count.
Click to expand...

The 9-ball in the bottom corners did not count as a win. But it still qualified as a ball down (even though it got spotted) that allowed the breaker to continue shooting....
 
Kid Dynomite

Kid Dynomite

Dennis (Michael) Wilson
Silver Member
JMuck said:
Don't you think Jay and Alex may have snuck a peak at the 2-ball gap beings it was only 2.25 inches away.I don't think at that moment anything was going to get past those two guys.
Click to expand...

Accu-stats will show them check only the gap before wing ball and never examine the back two ball is touching! :rolleyes:

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Xparent SkyBlue Tapatalk 2
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top