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wigglybridge
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10-02-2018, 09:23 PM

you've gotten some good advice, and some bad advice; that's how posing a question to an assortment of people goes, and at your level, you have no way of knowing which is which.

but note that one person, and one person only, in this thread -- Bob Jewett -- has beaten Shane Van Boening, America's best pro, in a long match.

so you might want to pay attention to his comments.


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10-03-2018, 05:46 AM

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Originally Posted by wigglybridge View Post
you've gotten some good advice, and some bad advice; that's how posing a question to an assortment of people goes, and at your level, you have no way of knowing which is which.

but note that one person, and one person only, in this thread -- Bob Jewett -- has beaten Shane Van Boening, America's best pro, in a long match.

so you might want to pay attention to his comments.
Interesting...did Bob Jewett take pool lessons within his first few months of playing??
  
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10-03-2018, 09:14 AM

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Originally Posted by wigglybridge View Post
you've gotten some good advice, and some bad advice; that's how posing a question to an assortment of people goes, and at your level, you have no way of knowing which is which.

but note that one person, and one person only, in this thread -- Bob Jewett -- has beaten Shane Van Boening, America's best pro, in a long match.

so you might want to pay attention to his comments.
I agree you should pay attention to him, but not because he beat Shane (which doesn't surprise me) - because he's both a good enough player and a knowledgable, experienced instructor. I think most pros would make mediocre instructors at best.

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10-03-2018, 09:26 AM

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Originally Posted by FeelDaShot View Post
Interesting...did Bob Jewett take pool lessons within his first few months of playing??
I'm not Bob, but....

Back then, there wasn't the instructor program we have today. And Bob was instrumental on what and how instructors instruct today.

I know that if I had to do it all over again, I'd love to get a lesson on good fundamentals early, and then hit the million balls with that good foundation rather than the craziness I lived through.

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10-03-2018, 11:58 AM

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Originally Posted by FeelDaShot View Post
$70 per hour seems way too expensive. I wouldn't pay more than $30.

When you hire an instructor they are going to spend almost 100% of the time looking at your fundamentals regarding how you stand and stroke through the shot. They won't do anything special to improve your speed control. That's something you have to practice on your own with repetition.

I suggest filming yourself shoot and deciding whether or not you have MAJOR flaws in your fundamentals. If you do, go see an instructor and the money will be well spent. If you don't have any major flaws, then skip the lesson for now and just continue to play.

During the early stages of development you will improve exponentially as you improve your knowledge of the game and get more comfortable with your shot making and position play.

I've always had naturally good fundamentals so I don't prefer lessons unless it's on something very specific such as racking secrets, jumping, breaking, etc.

Keep in mind that for the most part, instructors don't have all of the answers. If they did, they would be competing at the pro level.



Whole lot of BS in this post.

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10-03-2018, 12:07 PM

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Originally Posted by goettlicher View Post
Whole lot of BS in this post.

randyg
You would be correct Sir More than anyone should post at one time. lol


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10-03-2018, 01:44 PM

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Originally Posted by goettlicher View Post
Whole lot of BS in this post.

randyg

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Originally Posted by ChicagoRJ View Post
You would be correct Sir More than anyone should post at one time. lol
Ya, ya, ya...Sorry that I don't promote every player to spend all of their hard earned money on lessons lining the pockets of these instructors. Sure, anyone will benefit from a lesson with the right instructor. I'm not denying that.

Just like every child will benefit from going to private school. Public school is just fine for me and millions of others too.

You don't need to pay $70/hr to enjoy or master this game. Watch videos, read books, go to the pool hall, make friends, ask for advice, join a league, play in tournaments, practice, practice, practice...and you will be running racks in no time.
  
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Bob Jewett
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10-03-2018, 02:34 PM

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Originally Posted by FeelDaShot View Post
Interesting...did Bob Jewett take pool lessons within his first few months of playing??
Yes, I had lessons from Willie Mosconi. Not from Willie in person, but from his second book. The book had a lot of faults, but it got me started in more or less the right direction with only one or two major fundamental flaws.

As Fred mentioned, when I was starting there was no one in my area who taught fundamentals. The only pool "instructor" around was Tugboat Whaley (mentioned in both McGoorty and Mosconi's biography) who was said to have notebook full of useful shots for nine ball and one pocket. I wish I had gone to see him, but I doubt that he would have worked with me on my fundamentals. Whaley has been credited with Denny Searcy's jumping up three levels but Searcy was already a pretty good player before he saw Whaley.

If I had known what I was doing at the time, I would have gone to see Joe Davis or someone who taught his principles, but of course I didn't know what I was doing.


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10-03-2018, 03:23 PM

I shot pool multiple times weekly for many hours each time for years. My practice was mainly playing people and asking questions and paying attention. This unfortunately didn't fix fundamental flaws in my stroke or game. I got to a weak 'A' player level, but couldn't quite get the consistency I needed to really be competitive around the run-out players in my area.

Definitely get solid fundamentals and a good straight stroke. Whether you get a pro or watch yourself, whatever, just don't let yourself start committing bad habits to memory (muscle memory as well)

I quit pool for 5 years and when I came back to playing I was a much stronger player than when I stopped. The only logical reason for this huge jump in consistency has to be losing those bad habits and fundamentals I had spent years trying to iron out.

I do also have to add that I spent a lot of time recently studying patterns and pattern play and that has made worlds of difference as well. My touch doesn't have to be so perfect so often. I would recommend anyone interested in rotation games to examine their own games and games of others. Often times even great players in my area are relying too much on their touch and stroke instead of choosing the right shot.


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10-03-2018, 04:03 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Yes, I had lessons from Willie Mosconi. Not from Willie in person, but from his second book. The book had a lot of faults, but it got me started in more or less the right direction with only one or two major fundamental flaws.

As Fred mentioned, when I was starting there was no one in my area who taught fundamentals. The only pool "instructor" around was Tugboat Whaley (mentioned in both McGoorty and Mosconi's biography) who was said to have notebook full of useful shots for nine ball and one pocket. I wish I had gone to see him, but I doubt that he would have worked with me on my fundamentals. Whaley has been credited with Denny Searcy's jumping up three levels but Searcy was already a pretty good player before he saw Whaley.

If I had known what I was doing at the time, I would have gone to see Joe Davis or someone who taught his principles, but of course I didn't know what I was doing.

In the late Grady Mathews book "Bet High and Kiss Low" chapter titled "San Francisco 1963" Mathews at that time in his 20's describes how he was always loosing to the same guy at one pocket and in between games and old guy who said his name was Tugboat offered to show him how to play one pocket. A skeptical Grady accepted and after 2 - 2 1/2 hrs the game completely opened up to him and he made a big score off the player who always beat him. The book stated Tugboat was in his 80's.


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Bob Jewett
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10-03-2018, 04:19 PM

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Originally Posted by maldito View Post
In the late Grady Mathews book "Bet High and Kiss Low" chapter titled "San Francisco 1963" Mathews at that time in his 20's describes how he was always loosing to the same guy at one pocket and in between games and old guy who said his name was Tugboat offered to show him how to play one pocket. A skeptical Grady accepted and after 2 - 2 1/2 hrs the game completely opened up to him and he made a big score off the player who always beat him. The book stated Tugboat was in his 80's.
That would be the one, but I would have described Tugboat as in his 60s in the 60s.


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10-03-2018, 04:51 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
That would be the one, but I would have described Tugboat as in his 60s in the 60s.

Yes, about then Tugboat would have been in his 60's.

He'd sometimes play at my home room, just outside of San Francisco and I mention him in passing in an old post here:

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=210602

He was a charming fellow, quite the player, and I believe later on was a referee of note at Johnston City and other events. He's also mentioned in John Grissom's "Billiards."

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10-03-2018, 05:44 PM

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Originally Posted by judochoke View Post
hi, new to the forum. been playing daily for at least 2 hours a day for 4 months on a new diamond 7 foot table at my house. I can use left and right spin, can follow and draw well, am starting to really move the cue ball where I want it to go. have watched all of the videos on you tube, picking some of the drills and doing them over and over again.

I now know where I want the cue ball to go after a shot, but when I miss my spot, its either too much speed, or too much spin. I still of coarse have a lot of work to do. in my mind I want just too hit a shot 50 times, to have it my memory, with the right spin and speed. so I want to keep grinding away al least until the first of the year before I join a league.

my question is: do I need a pros help??? I hired a young kid in the first month, and he got me off on a good start, but then he left the state. I have a quote from a local instructor for about 70 a hour.

do I need instruction, or can I just keep practicing daily and my shots and cue ball control will get better on my own?? thanks for any input. judo
People that think a coach is a necessity would be wrong.

People that think you cannot get to a high level ("A" speed or shortstop) by playing "mostly" at home would be wrong.

I'm proof of this. I came back after almost three decades of no pool and within a couple of years of table time at home I now go out ever so often and beat my share of mid-level to strong shortstops in what I consider cheap sets.

Point being, a good coach is a great idea to learn fundamentals without developing bad habits. From that point on watching pros play on YouTube is your best bet to help learn pattern play, saftey play and break techniques for particular games and situations.

On the other hand, I would never suggest to try and copy any pros stance or stroke.

For a long time now, my best offensive practice tool is the ghost. He never misses, he never sandbags or trys to hustle me. He does however beat my a55 every single time I miss a shot or scratch on a break.

The ghost is no help with safety play but there are drills to help with that.

All in all ......, there is only one thing you MUST have that you cannot have by yourself (or at least I couldn't) and that is PRESSURE UNDER THE GUN.

No matter how much you practice you will choke under pressure.

Myself, lol.... I just THOUGHT I was ready to gamble with a mid level shortstop just because I was able to beat the 10 ball ghost at home.

I'm talking beating 10 ball ghost 11 - 3 at times. Lol..... first several times out in public I had my a55 handed to me by much lesser players simply because I was not use to the PRESSURE.

Oh yeah, did I mention PRESSURE?

BTW, invest in recording device. Something cheap is fine. Record your sessions and evaluate yourself from one session to another.

I have found the best way to hold myself accountable is to post ghost vids in the ghost challenge thread. Try to post one video every month or even once a week. It's fun and it's very helpful for others to see your game to give or even ask for advice.

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10-03-2018, 05:49 PM

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Originally Posted by judochoke View Post
im in Southern California, near Disney land. the reason I say I have only been playing for 4 months and already can use side spin is because im retired, with nothing but time. and the pool bug has bit me pretty hard. its a good thing, as im off the internet and away from the tv. but playing alone has its draw backs. so I have been able to really put my mind and soul into the game and have really improved in this short time.
im just using trial and error on side spin. but after time i have figured out somewhat
Before you go hog wild with an instructor, I am suggesting the following.
Buy a copy of Bert Kinister's 60 minute workout for 9-Ball (I think you can download it from his site by paying a fee). The principles inculcated therein apply to ALL games.
Spend 6 months of darn hard WORK with it. I'm talking about 4-5 hours a day with that CD only. (then go out and play people after you've worked out with it if you want to do so).
I was one of his first customers way back around 1992, I think, and if you're like I was, the first thing you will say about Shot #1 is this......."I've been ripped off. I paid good money for this fat buzzard to show me how to shoot a straight-in shot?"
How wrong I was...how wrong I was.
I worked with that shot #1 until I could hate it and Kininster as well...........but, he is absolutely right. That shot will create a stroke where there is no stroke. (I had some stroke errors from childhood that needed cleaning up. I'd been told this by top action gambling players, but none could steer me in the right direction.) Even Mosconi...yes, I played him a few times back in 1961 and 1962 and he was astonished at how I seemed to miss so many routine shots while having great form, great follow through, and keeping my head down. He couldn't pin it down either. Neither could Buddy Hall, or Danny Jones,or Long Beach, or Beanie Staton, or Ralph Guest, or Billy Johnson, or Tony Ellin, although Billy J. came VERY close to nailing it.
That silly ass Shot #1 from Kinister's tape WILL create a perfect stroke where there is no stroke. He gives you the tools..........YOU GOT TO DO THE WORK.
And avoid listening to pool players with that "hit a million balls stuff". That is so dumb. I've always asked..."what if the guy is hitting the million balls the wrong way?...that is so shallow and ignorant".
Give Kinnister a try.
Then if you've still got trouble, maybe hunt up an instructor (make sure he can play though...those that are all mouth don't mean too much to me)
Good luck and enjoy the game. I've been at it for 65 years...eyes and nerves are still good too.
However, if you don't like to train or won't train................then forget everything I've written in this post.

Last edited by Low500; 10-03-2018 at 05:57 PM.
  
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10-04-2018, 03:19 AM

Since your retired and have unlimited time on your hands, I would research all tips provided here on azbilliards. Watch endless YouTube videos of all the greats.

Since your only a couple months into the game, I would put all my work into my stance, stroke and pre shot routine. No point in putting any work into anything else if you can't shoot straight consistently.

Video recording yourself and reviewing yourself is a must to find any flaws. After recording myself after a 10 year layoff of the game, I found many flaws which is expected. My form at the table I have to compare to a bow legged woman, sliding my bridge hand into the cloth when going down into the shot and a choppy stroke. If I didn't record and review, I wouldn't have recognized my faults otherwise. This video was a couple months after playing again about 2 years ago and you can see what I mean about my form. Thankfully I fixed all those things since then after many hours of workouts.
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