To Spider...........
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To Spider........... - 06-24-2019, 05:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiderWebComm View Post
ROTFLMAO! What a crock of crap!
You can't STAY OUT of a CTE thread and haven't for 21 years! You either start them with some trolling bait or jump into each and every one.
NOTHING is holding you or anyone else back from starting a thread about ANY aiming system RIGHT NOW. PLEASE DO.
I/we PROMISE to stay out. Lets see how far it gets into depth. LMAO.
Spiderman....

I don't like Lou Figueroa...he is argumentative, hard headed, smug, and conceited in my opinion. But that old bum CAN shoot pool. (I'm not talking about that absurd one pocket match VS Barton where they both choked their guts out). Lou actually has video on YouTube where he runs many many balls shooting straight pool. And he did serve our country for a military career which does mean something.
However this ENGLISH, Pat Johnson, Duckie, and the "Putdown Posse" newest sugar boy, Crist... can't play a lick. Although Crist does shoot pretty good on YouTube in trying to peddle that book he sells...in an oblique way of course in here so he doesn't get his hand called.
I readily admit that I can't play a lick, but at least I'm trying to do something about that.
They, on the other hand, perch like crows on a powerline and yak yak yak about how this won't work and that won't work and on and on and on. They CANNOT leave it alone.
I'd like to see a posted video from ENGLISH and Johnson demonstrating their skills using THEIR methods of aiming pool balls. Not those little dumb shots that a drunk from the bus station can pocket, but those full table suckers into the corners from all angles.
I won't be holding my breath for that to happen.
  
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06-24-2019, 06:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mohrt View Post
If you mean rotate the table underneath the balls, sure. But (according to Stan) the pockets being at right angles on the corners of two adjacent squares is part of the perception equation. I have no way to test this, I only have a 2x1 regulation shape pool table. I can however, verify it works on the playing surface 99.99% of us play on.
Monty,

Can YOU or Stan please provide in writing the "perception EQUATION"?

I am sure that BC21 can check it out for "validity".
  
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06-24-2019, 06:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ENGLISH! View Post
Monty,

Can YOU or Stan please provide in writing the "perception EQUATION"?

I am sure that BC21 can check it out for "validity".
lol......you're gonna have to buy the book.
  
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06-24-2019, 06:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DTL View Post
Can't do that. Pool is played on a rectangular 2X1 surface......or 2 perfect squares with 8 right angles (6 pockets).

An experienced player will recognize the majority of shots at the moment of address, and the brain will immediately start breaking it down in terms of approx cut angle, tangent line, etc for a 2X1 surface......sort of like what Virtual Pool does for you with the lines. If you have a 1/2 ball hit on an OB that is 6" away from the corner pocket sitting straight out from the mouth of the pocket, and you line up with 1 tip low and 1 tip running english, your brain is mapping out the path of the CB knowing that you're gonna swing around 2 rails and land between the far side and corner pockets on the same side of the table (with medium speed hit) even though you're looking in the opposite direction . If you change your mind and shift the tip placement in any direction, your brain is mapping out the changes in real time as you do this, just like the VP software does.

For many players the eyes will also immediately dial in to what works best for the given shot. So like the Virtual Pool reference, if you started slowly moving the pocket to the left or right, the brain would immediately start processing the new data, including increasing or decreasing one eye over the other. So perhaps, yes, the CTE line probably could touch different spots on the OB if the pocket were moved......would you make the ball, who knows. CTE works great for 2X1 surfaces, though.
Okay...

Since you tried twice, I am going to try again, but I think for the first time with you.

Take the 5 shots from Stan's YouTube Video(relatively recently removed).

Now expand the table proportionally so that it remains in the 2:1 ratio...

But... it gets SO BIG that the corner pocket is 50 miles away & can NOT be seen & neither can the rails.

Essentially nothing can be seen but the green, sorry the blue, of the cloth.

What is there that is objectively seen that is different for any of the 5 shots?

What is there that objectively dictates to You, the shooter, to get onto a different physical position while using the same 15 visual?

Answer that with rational reasonable truthful logic & an atom bomb drops & destroys all of this stuff.

Please do not say closing or seeing out of one eye for one shot & then out of the other eye for another shot, as that is moving the goal post into another Galaxy?

PS You STILL have NOT apologized.

Last edited by ENGLISH!; 06-24-2019 at 06:46 PM.
  
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06-24-2019, 06:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Yes, I mean recreate the exact same three similar shots by moving the table & pocket rather than the balls - so it's crystal clear that nothing has changed with the balls themselves.


It's the same table and the balls are in exactly the same positions for the three shots as they would be if we moved the balls instead. All the numerological hocus pocus still applies exactly as before.

If I read Cookie right he believes there's now a different CTE line. I'm making sure we're talking about the same thing.

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06-24-2019, 06:48 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
None of that changes - read my reply to mohrt above.

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06-24-2019, 06:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ENGLISH! View Post
Okay...

Since you tried twice, I am going to try again, but I think for the first time with you.

Take the 5 shots from Stan's YouTube Video(relatively recently removed).

Now expand the table proportionally so that it remains in the 2:1 ratio...

But... it gets SO BIG that the corner pocket is 50 miles away & can NOT be seen & neither can the rails.

Essentially nothing can be seen but the green, sorry the blue, of the cloth.

What is there that is objectively seen that is different for any of the 5 shots?

What is there that objectively dictates to You, the shooter, to get onto a different physical position while using the same 15 visual?

Answer that with rational reasonable truthful logic & an atom bomb drops & destroys all of this stuff.

Please do not say closing or seeing out of one eye for one shot & then out of the other eye for another shot, as that is moving the goal post into another Galaxy?

PS You STILL have NOT apologized.
What the F are you talking about, lol.

You're getting desperate.

I'll take this as a "no".
  
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06-24-2019, 06:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DTL View Post
If I get what you're saying, in my mind it wouldn't change anything.

Problem is, we'll never be able to test this using someone who has never played pool, one who's brain doesn't immediately starts processing visual data at light speed at address, without all that bias .......meaning you'll never find a proficient player who has never played.
Soooo... it requires a subjectively learned data base?
  
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06-24-2019, 06:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
It sounds like you're saying CTE doesn't really "work". I don't believe that - I'm sure it works for its users as well as all the other aiming methods work for their users.

It's how it works that's the main bone of contention here - is the usual amount of "skilled estimation" required or not? CTE claims to be the exception to that rule - some of us think that's a fantastical enough claim to warrant questioning, especially for a commercial product.

But that's a different topic than whether or not it's a useful aiming system. I think it's as good as any system and has some interesting non-fantastic features, like the aim-&-anchor (ABC/CTE) reference lines and the small pivot as a focusing mechanism (see the "Fractions With Pivots" thread).

Pointing out the fantastical nature of some of the claims about how it works can sound like criticizing the whole system - I don't mean it that way. I think CTE can seriously work as an effective aiming aid - unfortunately, I think its fantastical "packaging" obscures that.

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I agree, but with perhaps one nitpick. "IT" does not work... as per asserted. People work WITH it.

I know or think that YOU understand that... the problem is that "they" do not... & to say "it works" is inaccurate given the context of the asserted declaration of WHAT it is.

Last edited by ENGLISH!; 06-24-2019 at 07:12 PM.
  
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06-24-2019, 06:57 PM

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Originally Posted by ENGLISH! View Post
Soooo... it requires a subjectively learned data base?
I couldn't care less about your Subj/Obj obsession.

See post 202.
  
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06-24-2019, 07:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mohrt View Post
If you move the table, you’ll still have to re-address the balls for the new perception.
Like I re-address for each new perception using contact points. Or like others do using other aiming methods. We can't describe how it's done either.

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06-24-2019, 09:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mohrt View Post
BC21,

First of all, thank you for a succinct and reasonable response to my video.

As for CIT, here are a couple things. Anytime I'm shooting a shot near 30 degrees (which would be maximum CIT) I try to minimize it if I can. I do this by doing two things. 1) adding some top or bottom spin. I haven't inspected my video closely, but I'm pretty confident that I habitually put a touch of bottom spin on shots like these, given the choice. Watch the CB exit path, you'll see. 2) speed. I don't baby these shots in, I give them a bit of punch. With those two factors in play, the CIT is minimized.

Now as for the difference between these shots, lets pay attention to shots 1 and 4. So they are about 3-4 degrees apart, I'll take your word for it. My main concern would be range of error to cut the ball. If you place two balls inside the pocket you are aiming at, you'll see the width of error you have to work with. If you are using 4.5" pockets, the balls would be touching, meaning your error is 2.125 inches (ball center to ball center). My table is 9', so at 6 or so diamonds away, you have to be pretty damned exact to pocket the ball.

If you setup shots 1 and 4, freeze a ghostball on the contact point of each one, then stand behind the CB and see the thickness of each cut, you will see that the difference between shots 1 and 4 is fairly significant. You *have* to be accurate here to hit that pocket with a ~1 degree margin of error. As I've stated before, I don't do anything post pivot to CCB to change the shot. At that point I'm on the shot line and CCB is my target. I DO look at the OB last. I'm never thinking "oh this needs to be a touch thinner", etc. CTE gives me CCB to pocket the ball. Although each of these shots has a unique physical orientation, I can get there through the same 30 inside perception. Our eyes are the most accurate instrument of our bodies. The perceptions are exacting. They do NOT work like a protractor on 2D paper.
I agree with all of this. But the the difference between shot 1 and 4 is about 1/16 of a ball, meaning shot 4 is 1/16 thinner than shot 1. That's not much. I made a video of shooting these shots with a 5/8 aim, but my power went off due to a damned tornado coming through town, and so the video was cut short.

Just like the 30 inside, I can use a 5/8 for each shot, though #4 is pushing the limits and a slightly thinner aim would be more accurate.


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06-25-2019, 12:18 AM

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Originally Posted by BeiberLvr View Post
What does this prove? I've seen non-CTE users do the same thing.


Why not try my experiment (from my deleted thread)?

Put the OB on the other side of the wall. Once you have your visuals. Have someone put the wall up so you can no longer see the OB. Sweep into your stance and try to make the ball.
Here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l0fAwmeOq8
  
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06-25-2019, 12:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
This would be a great trick! And that is how the system is described to work -- once you have the perception, that "fixed" cb, all you have to do is come in from exactly 1/2 tip offset and pivot or sweep back to ccb. But I don't think your experiment would be too successful for anyone, including Stan. Even though he insists that the cue is being tweaked to a "perfect" ccb alignment, I believe keeping the ob in view is part of what of determines that alignment.
And you would be wrong. Maybe you should accept that fact more often.

See my previous post.
  
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06-25-2019, 03:42 AM

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Originally Posted by Mirza View Post
Thanks Mirza, it's a good start, but not entirely what I described.

Only for the fact that every shot Stan took was pretty much the same.
  
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